Raves Posted August 16, 2019 Share Posted August 16, 2019 1 minute ago, Cheesehawk said: 2016 - 21st ranked defense. May have mixed up the numbers. I knew there was no chance we were that good yeah typo'd that good catch. That's still better than all of Brees' losing seasons. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheesehawk Posted August 16, 2019 Share Posted August 16, 2019 4 minutes ago, Raves said: yeah typo'd that good catch. That's still better than all of Brees' losing seasons. For sure. Brees and Rodgers have been in similar situations with defenses crapping the bed the majority of their careers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bolts223 Posted August 16, 2019 Share Posted August 16, 2019 3 hours ago, Raves said: Yes the Saints defenses were worse than those teams. I've brought this up many other times to show that it's not Brees fault that the Saints had losing records as he led teams to top offensive production but the defense still gave up more points than he could lead the offense to. Saints 2007 (7-9): 25th ranked defense, 24.2 PPG given up. T12th ranked offense 23.7 PPG Saints 2008 (8-8): T26th ranked defense 24.6 ppg, 1st ranked offense 28.9 PPG Saints 2012 (7-9): 31st ranked defense 28.4 PPG, 3rd ranked offense 28.8 PPG Saints 2014 (7-9): 28th ranked defense 26.5 PPG, 9th ranked offense 25.1 PPG Saints 2015 (7-9): 32nd ranked defense 29.8 PPG, 8th ranked offense 25.5 PPG Saints 2016 (7-9): 31st ranked defense 28.4 PPG, 2nd ranked offense 29.3 PPG Patriots 2011: 15th ranked defense 21.4 PPG Broncos 2013: 22nd ranked defense 24.9 PPG Green Bay 2016: 21st ranked defense 24.2 PPG Chiefs 2018: 24th ranked defense at 26.3 PPG Every year Brees has had at least the 20th ranked defense in PPG he's made the playoffs. Brady on the other hand: Top 10 defenses: 15 (including multiple probably about 6 or more #1 in PPG) #15 Ranked defense: 1 #17 ranked defense: 2 I'll say this again: PPG is not that meaningful of a measurement for defense, because offense has a ton to do with that as well. If an offense is consistently sustaining drives, then the defense can only give up so many points because the opposing offense is getting less chances to possess the ball. The Patriots offense is consistently one of the best at doing this. I'm not saying that it's Brees fault that those teams are bad. But how can you really say he elevated a terrible roster when those teams did nothing? That's the point of this post. I'm not saying Brees is at fault for them winning 6-7 games, I'm saying that he obviously didn't elevate those teams enough like Peyton Manning/Brady have been able to do with some pretty crappy rosters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkippyX Posted August 16, 2019 Share Posted August 16, 2019 (edited) 8 hours ago, Cheesehawk said: 2016 - 30th 2017 - 27th 2018 - 32nd Those are the Packers team rushing attempts by year across the league. But sure lets just solely focus on Rodgers on PA for why he isnt an elite QB. 53 of 55 out of league coaches and executives still consider him a tier 1 QB, but you right Skippy, he most certainly is not. For the past decade I have read on this website how the Packers are Rodgers + a bunch of nobodies and the only reason we have been successful was because of Rodgers.... but now he isn't a guy that elevates this team? Which is it? Here is 2016 Packers 374 carries 1704 yards 11 TDs at 4.7 per carry Steelers 409 carries 1760 yards 13 TDs at 4.3 per carry. (2.2 extra carries per game at 0.4 less per carry) Chiefs 412 carries 1748 yards 15 TDs at 4.2 per carry (2.4 extra carries per game at 0.5 less per carry) Here's 2017 Packers 386 carries 1724 yards 13 TDs at 4.5 per carry Steelers 437 carries 1667 yards 12 TDs at 3.8 per carry (3.2 extra carries a game at 0.7 yards less per carry) Chiefs 405 carries 1903 yards 12 TDs at 4.7 per carry (1.2 extra carries per game at 0.2 yards more per carry) And 2018 Packers 333 carries 1667 carries 14 TDs at 5.0 per carry Steelers 345 carries 1445 yards 16 TDs at 4.2 per carry ( 0.75 extra carries per game at 0.8 yards less per carry) Chiefs 387 carries 1885 yards 16 TDs at 4.8 per carry (2.75 extra carries per game at 0.2 less per carry) The Packers were 8th, 5th, and 2nd in yards per attempt in those 3 seasons. Do you think a handful less carries over a season negates that efficiency? Roethlisberger(45) was 33-14-1 in those 3 seasons Smith(30) and Mahomes(17) were 33-14 in those 3 seasons Rogers took some bad sacks, threw some incompletions on 3rd down that did not really hurt his QB rating, fought with his coach, and went 20-18-1 You would like to blame a few less carries in the running game for this? Edited August 16, 2019 by SkippyX Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoboRocket Posted August 16, 2019 Author Share Posted August 16, 2019 10 hours ago, Bolts223 said: I think there is a fairly decent argument that Drew Brees doesn't do that, otherwise how do you explain all the 6-10/7-9 seasons earlier this decade? I'm not saying Brees isn't a great QB or a first ballot HOFer, but I think that it's hard to say that about a guy who has QB'd as many losing teams as he has. Worst defense in the league. On offense, the dude turned water into wine. And he happens to play offense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steelersfan43 Posted August 16, 2019 Share Posted August 16, 2019 9 hours ago, Raves said: Yes the Saints defenses were worse than those teams. I've brought this up many other times to show that it's not Brees fault that the Saints had losing records as he led teams to top offensive production but the defense still gave up more points than he could lead the offense to. Saints 2007 (7-9): 25th ranked defense, 24.2 PPG given up. T12th ranked offense 23.7 PPG Saints 2008 (8-8): T26th ranked defense 24.6 ppg, 1st ranked offense 28.9 PPG Saints 2012 (7-9): 31st ranked defense 28.4 PPG, 3rd ranked offense 28.8 PPG Saints 2014 (7-9): 28th ranked defense 26.5 PPG, 9th ranked offense 25.1 PPG Saints 2015 (7-9): 32nd ranked defense 29.8 PPG, 8th ranked offense 25.5 PPG Saints 2016 (7-9): 31st ranked defense 28.4 PPG, 2nd ranked offense 29.3 PPG Patriots 2011: 15th ranked defense 21.4 PPG Broncos 2013: 22nd ranked defense 24.9 PPG Green Bay 2016: 21st ranked defense 24.2 PPG Chiefs 2018: 24th ranked defense at 26.3 PPG Every year Brees has had at least the 20th ranked defense in PPG he's made the playoffs. Brady on the other hand: Top 10 defenses: 15 (including multiple probably about 6 or more #1 in PPG) #15 Ranked defense: 1 #17 ranked defense: 2 If we look at the points per drive, the saints defense were last or 31st in this category ... Yards per play were also a major problem ... The time possession of the saints offense and the field position for the defense were not a problem so it's not an excuse Drew Brees had no control over his defense Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raves Posted August 16, 2019 Share Posted August 16, 2019 1 hour ago, Steelersfan43 said: If we look at the points per drive, the saints defense were last or 31st in this category ... Yards per play were also a major problem ... The time possession of the saints offense and the field position for the defense were not a problem so it's not an excuse Drew Brees had no control over his defense Oh I know, I watched those games, I didn't know where to find the stats for points per drive etc so I just used what I had readily available for me, which was PPG. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soko Posted August 16, 2019 Share Posted August 16, 2019 I think this question has equal to do (or more) with the coaches/offense these QBs are in. I have faith in guys like Reid, Belichick, McVay, Pederson, and the like, in getting solid production out of players that may not be so good. The QBs matter a ton, but I’m not sure if it’s more of a coaching thing or a QB thing. People are talking about Mahomes and how he elevated the offense, but that really doesn’t fit the thread IMO. Case Keenum can elevate an offense if the offense was led by Nathan Peterman the year before. Anyone can elevate an offense if the player before them was worse than they are. Mahomes is just a much better QB than Alex Smith was and a much better fit for what Reid likes to do. Not taking away from how great Mahomes was/is, but I’d like to see him play with a worse cast and be very successful, before saying he can elevate guys in the manner that we’ve seen a Brady or Brees or Peyton do it. If we’re going to try and isolate the QB, I don’t think Rodgers, Ben, or Ryan fit this either. Although I’d like to see Rodgers with a better OC. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raves Posted August 16, 2019 Share Posted August 16, 2019 7 hours ago, Bolts223 said: I'll say this again: PPG is not that meaningful of a measurement for defense, because offense has a ton to do with that as well. If an offense is consistently sustaining drives, then the defense can only give up so many points because the opposing offense is getting less chances to possess the ball. The Patriots offense is consistently one of the best at doing this. I'm not saying that it's Brees fault that those teams are bad. But how can you really say he elevated a terrible roster when those teams did nothing? That's the point of this post. I'm not saying Brees is at fault for them winning 6-7 games, I'm saying that he obviously didn't elevate those teams enough like Peyton Manning/Brady have been able to do with some pretty crappy rosters. Well in Points per drive stats that SteelersFan suggested using, I just found them on, 2007: Defense ranked 27th at 2.03 points per drive, Offense 11th at 1.92 Points per drive 2008: Defense 24th at 2.03 points per drive, offense 1st at 2.54 points per drive 2012: Defense ranked 31st at 2.27 PPD, Offense 4th at 2.35 PPD 2014: Defense ranked 31st at 2.37 PPD, Offense 5th at 2.35 PPD 2015: Defense ranked 32nd at 2.64 PPD, offense 6th at 2.24 PPD 2016: Defense ranked 32nd at 2.50 PPD, offense 2nd at 2.65 PPD So the defense gave up a lot of points based on each drive, not regardless, not because they had a lot of them. Going by the same setting as before: 2011 Patriots: Defense 21st at 1.9 PPD, offense 3rd at 2.79 2013 Broncos: Defense 19th at 1.89 PPD, offense 1st at 2.89 PPD 2016 Packers: Defense 28th at 2.29 PPD, offense 3rd at 2.60 PPD 2018 Chiefs: Defense 28th at 2.41 PPD, Offense 1st at 3.25 PPD Additionally Time of Posession (Less than 30 minutes of TOP which is half a game) / Rushing Attempts per game: 2007: 7th / 26th 2008: 15th / 26th 2012: 25th (28:48) / 29th 2014: 19th (29:48) / 19th 2015: 7th / 20th 2016: 6th /18th Also Brees has never won less than 7 games with the Saints. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steelersfan43 Posted August 16, 2019 Share Posted August 16, 2019 29 minutes ago, Raves said: Oh I know, I watched those games, I didn't know where to find the stats for points per drive etc so I just used what I had readily available for me, which was PPG. https://www.pro-football-reference.com/ Click on the teams that you want and you will see his stats Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raves Posted August 16, 2019 Share Posted August 16, 2019 Also I'm just going from 2002 Defense PPD rankings: 2002: Patriots 20th @1.86 PPD / Colts 18th @ 1.79 2003: NE 1st @ 1.13 PPD / IND 23rd at 1.83 PPD 2004: NE 4th at 1.36 PPD / IND 23 @ 1.96 PPD 2005: NE 22 @ 1.83 PPD / IND 8th @ 1.44 PPD 2006: NE 3rd @ 1.20 PPD / IND 28th @ 2.08 PPD / NO 13th @ 1.62 2007: NE 3rd @ 1.42 PPD / IND 5th @ 1.44 PDD / NO 27th @ 2.03 PPD 2008: NE 13th @ 1.77 PPD / IND 11th @ 1.77 PPD / NO 24th @ 2.03 PPD 2009: NE 7th @ 1.51 PPD / IND 14th @ 1.68 PPD / NO 16th @ 1.71 PPD 2010: NE 16th @ 1.73 PPD / IND 25th @ 1.99 PPD / NO 11th @ 1.64 PPD 2011: NE 21st @ 1.90 PPD / Peyton Injured / NO 20th @ 1.84 PPD 2012: NE 12th @ 1.72 PPD / DEN 5th @ 1.48 PPD / NO 31st @ 2.27 PPD 2013: NE 10th @ 1.66 PPD / DEN 19th @ 1.89 PPD / NO 8th @ 1.63 PPD 2014: NE 8th @ 1.69 PPD / DEN 12th @ 1.74 PPD / NO 31st @ 2.37 PPD 2015: NE 9th @ 1.59 PPD / DEN 1st @ 1.43 PPD / NO 32nd @ 2.64 PPD 2016: NE 1st @ 1.42 PPD / Peyton Retired / NO 32nd @ 2.50 PPD 2017: NE 6th @ 1.65 PPD / Peyton Retired / NO 12th @ 1.77 PPD 2018 NE 7th @ 1.78 PPD / Peyton Retired / NO 20th @ 2.14 PPD @Bolts223 @Steelersfan43 @Cheesehawk 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raves Posted August 16, 2019 Share Posted August 16, 2019 Man, Brady sure carried and elevated all of those top 10 defenses... -edit- before it becomes a thing I know Brady is elite and I'm just making an off handed comment because for the majority of his career he has had a great defense to rely on to help him win as much while other QBs who haven't get knocked for not winning more. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SBLIII Posted August 16, 2019 Share Posted August 16, 2019 Defense DVOA is a much better and much more relevant stat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bolts223 Posted August 16, 2019 Share Posted August 16, 2019 (edited) 4 hours ago, Raves said: Man, Brady sure carried and elevated all of those top 10 defenses... -edit- before it becomes a thing I know Brady is elite and I'm just making an off handed comment because for the majority of his career he has had a great defense to rely on to help him win as much while other QBs who haven't get knocked for not winning more. Brady has also had a lot of seasons with the likes of Troy Brown/Julian Edelman or even Reche Caldwell being his #1 option at WR. My point being is this: The argument is that people are saying Brees elevates even bad teams he has been on. Every Saints team that has had any level of success since he has been there has had a lot of talent. To say that he is elevating bad rosters to do anything meaningful is just an incorrect statement. I can name instances where Peyton, Brady and Rodgers did actually elevate some pretty bad rosters into the playoffs. (Brady in 2011, Peyton Manning in 2010, Rodgers in 2016) I can't name a single instance with Brees where he took any roster that wasn't very good and did anything with it. Edited August 16, 2019 by Bolts223 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bolts223 Posted August 16, 2019 Share Posted August 16, 2019 (edited) 4 hours ago, Raves said: Also I'm just going from 2002 Defense PPD rankings: 2002: Patriots 20th @1.86 PPD / Colts 18th @ 1.79 2003: NE 1st @ 1.13 PPD / IND 23rd at 1.83 PPD 2004: NE 4th at 1.36 PPD / IND 23 @ 1.96 PPD 2005: NE 22 @ 1.83 PPD / IND 8th @ 1.44 PPD 2006: NE 3rd @ 1.20 PPD / IND 28th @ 2.08 PPD / NO 13th @ 1.62 2007: NE 3rd @ 1.42 PPD / IND 5th @ 1.44 PDD / NO 27th @ 2.03 PPD 2008: NE 13th @ 1.77 PPD / IND 11th @ 1.77 PPD / NO 24th @ 2.03 PPD 2009: NE 7th @ 1.51 PPD / IND 14th @ 1.68 PPD / NO 16th @ 1.71 PPD 2010: NE 16th @ 1.73 PPD / IND 25th @ 1.99 PPD / NO 11th @ 1.64 PPD 2011: NE 21st @ 1.90 PPD / Peyton Injured / NO 20th @ 1.84 PPD 2012: NE 12th @ 1.72 PPD / DEN 5th @ 1.48 PPD / NO 31st @ 2.27 PPD 2013: NE 10th @ 1.66 PPD / DEN 19th @ 1.89 PPD / NO 8th @ 1.63 PPD 2014: NE 8th @ 1.69 PPD / DEN 12th @ 1.74 PPD / NO 31st @ 2.37 PPD 2015: NE 9th @ 1.59 PPD / DEN 1st @ 1.43 PPD / NO 32nd @ 2.64 PPD 2016: NE 1st @ 1.42 PPD / Peyton Retired / NO 32nd @ 2.50 PPD 2017: NE 6th @ 1.65 PPD / Peyton Retired / NO 12th @ 1.77 PPD 2018 NE 7th @ 1.78 PPD / Peyton Retired / NO 20th @ 2.14 PPD @Bolts223 @Steelersfan43 @Cheesehawk By DVOA the 2011 Patriots defense was ranked 30th and still went 13-3 and went to the SB. Edited August 16, 2019 by Bolts223 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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