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2 hours ago, Bolts223 said:

The 2001 Patriots went 5-11 in 2000 and started the 2001 season 0-2. Ended up winning the SB. Top offensive weapons were Troy Brown, David Patten and JR Redmond.

The 2006 Patriots had Reche Caldwell as the #1 receiving threat with an aging defense and that team still went 12-4 and went to the AFC Championship game.

The 2011 Patriots had Gronk injured in the postseason, one of the worst defenses in the league and they still went 13-3 and went to the SB.

The 2013 Patriots also had injured Gronk, a pretty meh defense and still went 12-4 and went to the AFC Championship game.

- The 2018 Patriots had a washed up Gronk, and Edelman and Dorsett as the biggest threats at WR's. They have a defensive front that doesn't consist of really any major stars, and nobody that's really a giant star in the secondary besides Gilmore. This team went 11-5 and won the SB.

The Patriots have had 9 straight first round byes and not all of those teams have been particularly talented.

 

 

 

I can't believe I'm going to do this but your "description" and changing the goalposts when I keep showing statistically the reality of the situation, but if you're going to use "perception" for it, I'll do it now too.

Brees hasn't had a single good offensive weapon in his entire career with the Saints.  Everyone he has played with is a direct result of his greatness.  Prove me wrong.  Jimmy Graham sucked leaving the Saints, Meachem, Lance Moore, Reggie Bush, Chris Ivory, Pierre Thomas, etc etc etc.  Even Michael Thomas and Alvin Kamara right now.  If not for Brees they would be bad players.

Oh and the defense, well Brady doesn't actually have any effect on that and neither does Brees so that doesn't matter in regards to them "uplifting" a part of the team. But it's been proven statistically in multiple metrics that the Pats are better drastically.

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Posted (edited)
57 minutes ago, Raves said:

I can't believe I'm going to do this but your "description" and changing the goalposts when I keep showing statistically the reality of the situation, but if you're going to use "perception" for it, I'll do it now too.

Brees hasn't had a single good offensive weapon in his entire career with the Saints.  Everyone he has played with is a direct result of his greatness.  Prove me wrong.  Jimmy Graham sucked leaving the Saints, Meachem, Lance Moore, Reggie Bush, Chris Ivory, Pierre Thomas, etc etc etc.  Even Michael Thomas and Alvin Kamara right now.  If not for Brees they would be bad players.

Oh and the defense, well Brady doesn't actually have any effect on that and neither does Brees so that doesn't matter in regards to them "uplifting" a part of the team. But it's been proven statistically in multiple metrics that the Pats are better drastically.

 

I'm almost not even sure you are being serious because what you just said was so... wrong. Where to start:

Brandin Cooks was a stud both with the Patriots in 2017 and with the Rams last season. 

Chris Ivory had a 1000 yard rushing season and was a pro-bowler with the Jets in 2015.

Reggie Bush had 1000 yards rushing with both the Lions and Dolphins after he left the Saints.

Pierre Thomas was washed and the Saints didn't keep him because he just wasn't good anymore.

Meachem was merely depth both when he was with the Saints and in the one year he was with the Chargers. How is he even relevant to anything?

Lance Moore's numbers declined drastically in his final year with the Saints in 2013 before he went to another team. I think that's just a matter of him hitting the wall and declining because of age.

There is no basis for you to say Michael Thomas or Kamara would be bad players without Brees. Jimmy Graham is probably the only player of those you named that seemed to fall off once he left the Saints for no apparent reason. And for that I would just argue that has more to do with offensive systems than QB's, as Russell Wilson is also an elite QB.

The Patriots defenses are better than the Saints, no doubt.

The difference is that the Patriots on a bad year with serious roster deficiencies (on either side of the ball) are still winning 11-12 games, getting a 1st round bye and going to AFC Championship games.

The Saints when they have roster deficiencies are going 7-9 and can't even win a division that is won by a 7-8-1 team.

 

 

 

Edited by Bolts223

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22 hours ago, Bolts223 said:

The 2011 Patriots had Gronk injured in the postseason, one of the worst defenses in the league and they still went 13-3 and went to the SB.

 

That 2011 Pats defense was ranked 15th in PPG and 3rd in takeaways.  Don't underestimate how important the takeaways are.  

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1 hour ago, Jlowe22 said:

That 2011 Pats defense was ranked 15th in PPG and 3rd in takeaways.  Don't underestimate how important the takeaways are.  

I get that they are important.

But when you have an offense scoring 33 points a game & forcing teams to make extremely risky throws to keep up, a lot of turnovers are just going to naturally happen.

 

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6 hours ago, Bolts223 said:

I get that they are important.

But when you have an offense scoring 33 points a game & forcing teams to make extremely risky throws to keep up, a lot of turnovers are just going to naturally happen.

 

Tell that to the Saints teams that were putting up a lot of poitns but the defense still couldn't create take aways... pretty much every Saints losing season actually.

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On 8/17/2019 at 2:45 PM, Bolts223 said:

I get that they are important.

But when you have an offense scoring 33 points a game & forcing teams to make extremely risky throws to keep up, a lot of turnovers are just going to naturally happen.

 

The offense helps the defense, but it works both ways.  A defense that gets a lot of takeaways can help an offense score a lot of points.  The Pats scoring 33 PPG almost certainly had a lot to do with the defense giving up a lot of yards.  But they didn't give up a lot of points(relatively), and got a lot of takeaways.  The two things that matter most.

It doesn't always work that way though.  The Saints offense that same year was historically good, but the defense was below average and bottom of the league in takeaways.  I sometimes imagine having the 2011 offense with the 2009 defense that got a lot of takeaways.  That 2011 team could have scored a lot more points with a defense that got 30+ takeaways rather than 16.  Or at the very least, their point to yardage ratio would have been different.  The 2015 team is another example of a good offense paired with one of the worst defenses in the history of the league.

At the end of the day, offense can help defense, and vice versa.  I acknowledge this, but still give most of the defense credit to defense, and offense credit to offense.  Some of your best defenses in history were paired with garbage offense, and vice versa.

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On 8/17/2019 at 2:30 PM, Jlowe22 said:

That 2011 Pats defense was ranked 15th in PPG and 3rd in takeaways.  Don't underestimate how important the takeaways are.  

They did, but they were still one of the worst. 

Julian Edelman, Tully Banta-Cain, Matthew Slater, Antwuan Molden, Kyle Love, James Ihedigbo, Sterling Moore, Sergio Brown, Brandon Deaderick, Josh Barrett, Tracy White, Kyle Arrington, Brandon Spikes, and Gary Guyton were all seeing decent snaps on that defense. It was an injury riddled, sorry squad. Not to mention this was pre-FS Devin McCourty and pre-return Patrick Chung. Some JAGs had some good stats (Kyle Arrington, Mark Anderson) but they were liabilities too. 

The only players really worth their weight on that defense were Jerod Mayo, Vince Wilfork, Rob Ninkovich, and pre-injury Andre Carter. 

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Brees made Jimmy Graham look comparably to Gronk for a few seasons. Brees hasn't had a #1 WR until he got Thomas. 

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6 minutes ago, Yin-Yang said:

They did, but they were still one of the worst. 

Julian Edelman, Tully Banta-Cain, Matthew Slater, Antwuan Molden, Kyle Love, James Ihedigbo, Sterling Moore, Sergio Brown, Brandon Deaderick, Josh Barrett, Tracy White, Kyle Arrington, Brandon Spikes, and Gary Guyton were all seeing decent snaps on that defense. It was an injury riddled, sorry squad. Not to mention this was pre-FS Devin McCourty and pre-return Patrick Chung. Some JAGs had some good stats (Kyle Arrington, Mark Anderson) but they were liabilities too. 

The only players really worth their weight on that defense were Jerod Mayo, Vince Wilfork, Rob Ninkovich, and pre-injury Andre Carter. 

I'm only saying 34 takeaways helps a team a lot.  Especially a team with an offense that can take advantage of the takeaways, like the Pats.  It may have been luck, or good coaching for poor players, or both, but the end result was a defense that got a lot of takeaways whether the players were garbage or not.

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28 minutes ago, Jlowe22 said:

The offense helps the defense, but it works both ways.  A defense that gets a lot of takeaways can help an offense score a lot of points.  The Pats scoring 33 PPG almost certainly had a lot to do with the defense giving up a lot of yards.  But they didn't give up a lot of points(relatively), and got a lot of takeaways.  The two things that matter most.

It doesn't always work that way though.  The Saints offense that same year was historically good, but the defense was below average and bottom of the league in takeaways.  I sometimes imagine having the 2011 offense with the 2009 defense that got a lot of takeaways.  That 2011 team could have scored a lot more points with a defense that got 30+ takeaways rather than 16.  Or at the very least, their point to yardage ratio would have been different.  The 2015 team is another example of a good offense paired with one of the worst defenses in the history of the league.

At the end of the day, offense can help defense, and vice versa.  I acknowledge this, but still give most of the defense credit to defense, and offense credit to offense.  Some of your best defenses in history were paired with garbage offense, and vice versa.

And in 2011, the Saints still finished 13-3(same record that the Pats) but they were the 3rd seed in the NFC (the only team since 2000 in the NFL to not have a first round bye with a 13-3 record) ... I think if Saints defense make a final stop with 40 second left in the game against Alex Smith and the 49ers, the Saints win the Super Bowl.

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1 minute ago, Steelersfan43 said:

And in 2011, the Saints still finished 13-3(same record that the Pats) but they were the 3rd seed in the NFC (the only team since 2000 in the NFL to not have a first round bye with a 13-3 record) ... I think if Saints defense make a final stop with 40 second left in the game against Alex Smith and the 49ers, the Saints win the Super Bowl.

They would have played the Giants in the superdome, where they hadn't lost a game that year.  Then we could have had an exciting shootout for a superbowl with Brees vs Brady and two garbage defenses.  Maybe the Pats defense get turnovers like they had all year and Pats win, but there would have been a lot of points on the board.

 

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Posted (edited)
On 8/16/2019 at 3:37 PM, Bolts223 said:

Uh not anywhere close to the same extent.

You really think this Patriots team that won last year was really that talented of a roster? It wasn't like the Cardinals or anything but there were rosters FAR more talented than it. The Saints included.

Patriots 2018 roster:

- 1st-round RB, Sony Michel (higher investment than Alvin Kamara). Played really well, too.

- Julian Edelman, pro-bowl caliber WR and Super Bowl MVP

- Josh Gordon, one of the most gifted WRs in the league

- Rob Gronkowski, GOAT TE when it comes to talent, although he wasn't in GOAT shape this past year. Still a top-5 TE

- Trent Brown, a mega-contract tackle

- Marcus Cannon, one of the best RTs in the league

- Shaq Mason, arguably the best guard in the whole NFL

- Trey Flowers, mega-contract DE

- Dont'a Hightower, top 10 ILB.

- Devin McCourty, pro bowl safety

- Jason McCourty, #1 CB talent as seen in Tennessee, Cleveland, and this past year in New England

- Patrick Chung, who has been a starter all 10 seasons of his career and is considered one of the better safeties in the league, but NOT top-10

- Stephon Gilmore, elite lockdown CB

- Adrian Clayborn, coming off of a 9.5 sack season

 

You really think the Patriots roster was bad? With arguably the best secondary in the league? Brady even had more options on offense than Brees for the majority of the season.

Edited by HoboRocket

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Quick question: when was the last time a Brees offense had a bad season? 

 

Yes, he currently has two great weapons. Alvin Kamara is a top-5 receiving back. Michael Thomas has the biggest WR contract ever. Who was the number two WR last year? I remember that they got Ted Ginn but he got hurt really early. Dez Bryant never even saw the field for the Saints. What about TE? 

Drew Brees has MADE weapons for most of his career. The roster has been really bad for a lot of his time in New Orleans, but he's made the team competitive, and they've consistently been a top team offensively, despite the RBs always being hurt/unavailable until recently and never really having multiple good WRs besides 2015 and 2016.

He elevates the offense. Try to find a legitimate way to refute that. 

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On 8/16/2019 at 4:06 PM, TitanLegend said:

The severe lack of mentions for Andrew Luck in this thread disappoints me. Colts roster was pathetic the first like 5 years of his career and he still kept them as a solid offense.

 

On 8/16/2019 at 3:28 PM, Blackstar12 said:

Colts were 30th in scoring in 2017 without Luck. With him in 2018 they were 5th.

I mentioned Luck at the start of the thread. He may be the single player in the league that has had the most on his shoulders when it comes to carrying the offense over the past six years or so.

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1 hour ago, HoboRocket said:

 

I mentioned Luck at the start of the thread. He may be the single player in the league that has had the most on his shoulders when it comes to carrying the offense over the past six years or so.

It’s nice to see him finally have a GM that knows what he’s doing. It’s early but I also have a good feeling about coach Frank Reich.

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