Bolts223 Posted August 20, 2019 Share Posted August 20, 2019 11 hours ago, HoboRocket said: Patriots 2018 roster: - 1st-round RB, Sony Michel (higher investment than Alvin Kamara). Played really well, too. - Julian Edelman, pro-bowl caliber WR and Super Bowl MVP - Josh Gordon, one of the most gifted WRs in the league - Rob Gronkowski, GOAT TE when it comes to talent, although he wasn't in GOAT shape this past year. Still a top-5 TE - Trent Brown, a mega-contract tackle - Marcus Cannon, one of the best RTs in the league - Shaq Mason, arguably the best guard in the whole NFL - Trey Flowers, mega-contract DE - Dont'a Hightower, top 10 ILB. - Devin McCourty, pro bowl safety - Jason McCourty, #1 CB talent as seen in Tennessee, Cleveland, and this past year in New England - Patrick Chung, who has been a starter all 10 seasons of his career and is considered one of the better safeties in the league, but NOT top-10 - Stephon Gilmore, elite lockdown CB - Adrian Clayborn, coming off of a 9.5 sack season You really think the Patriots roster was bad? With arguably the best secondary in the league? Brady even had more options on offense than Brees for the majority of the season. - Edelman has had over 1000 yards twice in his career. He's no Michael Thomas. - Gronk was washed up & was not top 5. - Josh Gordon didn't even play in the playoffs. - The Patriots o-line largely benefits from Brady (Who is by far the best at switching up plays presnap once he gets a look at a defensive formation) and having the best OL coach in the league in Scarnecchia. Yeah they have some talent on their roster, but it's by no means a roster that you look at and say "SB winner." 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raves Posted August 20, 2019 Share Posted August 20, 2019 9 hours ago, Bolts223 said: - Edelman has had over 1000 yards twice in his career. He's no Michael Thomas. - Gronk was washed up & was not top 5. - Josh Gordon didn't even play in the playoffs. - The Patriots o-line largely benefits from Brady (Who is by far the best at switching up plays presnap once he gets a look at a defensive formation) and having the best OL coach in the league in Scarnecchia. Yeah they have some talent on their roster, but it's by no means a roster that you look at and say "SB winner." -Is Michael Thomas, Michael Thomas without Brees? I obviously think he is, but that can be asked and an argument that people were making when he was holding out for his new contract and/or when trying to decide where Thomas belongs in the WR ranking. -Gronk is still someone teams have to account for even washed up and not top 5 as you put it as he's still a great threat. Gronk was still 6th in receiving yards, 5th in YPC for TEs with over 10 catches, 6th in 1st downs, and 6th in 1st down% for TEs over 10 catches and jumps to 4th if you set the bar at 20 catches. Not exactly a bad option considering that only 3 TEs broke 1k yards and they all had 40+ catches more than Gronk. -He was still there for a part of the year that helped lead to the playoffs. -Is coaching not part of the team? Having great coaching possibly matters even more than individual talent at times. A coach that can create a system that lets you plug and play good/above average players and still have the unit as a whole produce at a top tier level matters in that discussion. For all the "talent" the Saints have had on the defensive side, they've rarely had coaching that put together positive results. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skywlker32 Posted August 21, 2019 Share Posted August 21, 2019 On 8/15/2019 at 4:38 PM, SkippyX said: Rodgers had elite talent around him when he was an elite QB. The team he took over in 2008 was in the NFCCG in 2007. Randall Cobb was their 5th WR in 2011 Four of those WRs have 50+ NFL TDs and the 5th has 41 and counting. Driver, Jennings, Jones, Nelson, Cobb (and Finley was a decent TE) Four of the 5 have made the pro bowl and the one who did not (James Jones) led the league in TDs in 2012 You can't find another WR stable like that (closest might be Denver 2013 but it falls flat after Welker (Andre Caldwell at 4 and no real #5) The 30-24-1 QB since 2015 is not really elevating anything. The Green Bay offense fell apart in 2015 when Jordy Nelson went down. 1/6 ranked to 15/23 Rodgers dropped 20 points in his QB rating They bounced back to 4/8 when Nelson came back in 2016. Rodgers played 16 in all 3 seasons. Who was elevating that offense? Feel free to compare that to Brady losing Edelman (2017) or long stretches without Gronk (2013 and 2016). https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/are-we-sure-aaron-rodgers-is-still-an-elite-quarterback/ Maybe 538 stat guys are 'haters' now too? Maybe reality is a hater as well? As far as the supporting WR cast, you mention Cobb as being the 5th WR on the team, but he was also a rookie. You could point the same thing out about the 2010 Steelers that had Antonio Brown as the 5th receiver behind Hines Ward, Mike Wallace, Emmanuel Sanders, Antwaan Randle El. Context matters though. As for those receivers: Donald Driver - Never played outside of GB (for Favre and then Rodgers) Jordy Nelson - Only played one season outside of GB and put up 700 yards in OAK (albeit at age 33) Greg Jennings - Played in MIA and MIN and put up 800 yards, 742 yards, and 208 yards in those 3 years James Jones - In his only season outside of GB, he put up 666 yards and then went back to GB and had 890 yards. Randall Cobb - Hasn't played outside of GB The point being, we don't really know how much of these WRs success was because of Rodgers because they mostly played in GB. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkippyX Posted August 23, 2019 Share Posted August 23, 2019 On 8/18/2019 at 7:56 PM, Classic said: Brees made Jimmy Graham look comparably to Gronk for a few seasons. Brees hasn't had a #1 WR until he got Thomas. Colston was not a #1 because you have a lame agenda? Six 1000 yard seasons in 6 healthy seasons from 2006-2012 (and 760 in 11 games in the one year he did not play in 14+ games) He had 900+ and 5 TDs in 2013 and 2014. The guy is 39th all time in TD catches sandwiched around Andre Johnson and Antonio Brown. He had more catches, more yards, and the same number of TDs as Jordy Nelson in less games played. Seriously, get a clue. Devrey Henderson averaged 18.1 per catch from 2006-2012. Kenny Stills averaged 16.5 a catch from 2013-2014 Robert Meachem averaged 16.5 per catch in 6 years in New Orleans Graham's 5 years in New Orleans were about 300 yards and 5 TDs behind Gronk's best 5 year period. Snead averaged 940 yards and 3.5 TDs as a #3 WR over 2015-2016 Cooks was an absolute stud in 2015-2016 Michael Thomas has been incredible his first 3 seasons. 2016-2018 Brees has been surrounded by outstanding talented players in a fantastic system run by an innovative and bold head coach. I will concede Reggie Wayne and Marvin Harrison and co. were better from 2002-2006 for Manning. Guys like Brady had a few seasons with better WRs like Moss and Welker and Stallworth. Denver 2013 is another example Guys like Warner had top 2 studs for a while (Bruce and Holt and then Fitz and Bolden) I'd put Brees' 2006-2018 WRs TEs, pass catching RBs, system, comfy dome, and coaches up against anyone else from any sustained period. Bush, Sproles, Thomas, and Kamara as pass catching backs? (that covers 11 of his 13 seasons in New Orleans) Here is one of his worst years of RB support -- 2016 with Ingram, Cadet, and Hightower. They ran for 1600 yards and 10 TDs and they caught 108 passes and another 9 TDs. He also had Thomas, Cooks, and Snead at WR and a decent Coby Fleener at TE (50 631 3) Brees had it the easiest to stat compile but you want to pretend he had it the hardest., Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jlowe22 Posted August 23, 2019 Share Posted August 23, 2019 7 hours ago, SkippyX said: Colston was not a #1 because you have a lame agenda? Six 1000 yard seasons in 6 healthy seasons from 2006-2012 (and 760 in 11 games in the one year he did not play in 14+ games) He had 900+ and 5 TDs in 2013 and 2014. The guy is 39th all time in TD catches sandwiched around Andre Johnson and Antonio Brown. He had more catches, more yards, and the same number of TDs as Jordy Nelson in less games played. Seriously, get a clue. Devrey Henderson averaged 18.1 per catch from 2006-2012. Kenny Stills averaged 16.5 a catch from 2013-2014 Robert Meachem averaged 16.5 per catch in 6 years in New Orleans Graham's 5 years in New Orleans were about 300 yards and 5 TDs behind Gronk's best 5 year period. Snead averaged 940 yards and 3.5 TDs as a #3 WR over 2015-2016 Cooks was an absolute stud in 2015-2016 Michael Thomas has been incredible his first 3 seasons. 2016-2018 Brees has been surrounded by outstanding talented players in a fantastic system run by an innovative and bold head coach. I will concede Reggie Wayne and Marvin Harrison and co. were better from 2002-2006 for Manning. Guys like Brady had a few seasons with better WRs like Moss and Welker and Stallworth. Denver 2013 is another example Guys like Warner had top 2 studs for a while (Bruce and Holt and then Fitz and Bolden) I'd put Brees' 2006-2018 WRs TEs, pass catching RBs, system, comfy dome, and coaches up against anyone else from any sustained period. Bush, Sproles, Thomas, and Kamara as pass catching backs? (that covers 11 of his 13 seasons in New Orleans) Here is one of his worst years of RB support -- 2016 with Ingram, Cadet, and Hightower. They ran for 1600 yards and 10 TDs and they caught 108 passes and another 9 TDs. He also had Thomas, Cooks, and Snead at WR and a decent Coby Fleener at TE (50 631 3) Brees had it the easiest to stat compile but you want to pretend he had it the hardest., The saints have normally had solid depth offensively, but rarely elite talent. It was the opposite last year, with Thomas and Kamara, and nobody after Thomas. I’d put Thomas and Kamara over Graham and Sproles. But Graham and Sproles weren’t alone, there was still Colston and better receiver depth. I do think the 2011 offense was the best the Saints have ever had. The Saints weakness has never had anything to do with offense. It’s been defense and sometimes special teams. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkippyX Posted August 23, 2019 Share Posted August 23, 2019 On 8/21/2019 at 10:54 AM, skywlker32 said: The point being, we don't really know how much of these WRs success was because of Rodgers because they mostly played in GB. How do you decide to count success with Favre as part of success with Rodgers? Matt Flynn played a game with those guys in 2011 and he had 480 yards and 6 TDs in a 45-41 win. Was that because of Rodgers too? That game was against a playoff team that could have avoided playing a 13-3 Saints team in their dome the next week in the wildcard round. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skywlker32 Posted August 23, 2019 Share Posted August 23, 2019 1 hour ago, SkippyX said: How do you decide to count success with Favre as part of success with Rodgers? Matt Flynn played a game with those guys in 2011 and he had 480 yards and 6 TDs in a 45-41 win. Was that because of Rodgers too? That game was against a playoff team that could have avoided playing a 13-3 Saints team in their dome the next week in the wildcard round. Favre is another top QB. He elevated WRs also. Having success with him doesn't mean that Rodgers isn't elevating them. As far as Flynn goes, that's a great game, but it is also a 1 game sample size. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jlowe22 Posted August 23, 2019 Share Posted August 23, 2019 All the top QBs are gonna elevate receivers to an extent. It doesn’t mean the other players are garbage, but it helps a ton to have a QB that can read defenses and throw accurate passes. Likewise it helps a QB to have receivers who can catch passes and run good routes. Doesn’t mean the QB is garbage without them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrnastiesNO Posted August 24, 2019 Share Posted August 24, 2019 On 8/15/2019 at 8:41 PM, Bolts223 said: I mean PPG on the defensive side of the ball is sorta dependent on the offense as well. If an offense can stay on the field long enough, that can help out even a bottom 3-5 defense in terms of giving up less points. I'm not sure on the actual stats but: - The 2011 Patriots were an awful defense yet still went 13-3 and made the SB. - The 2013 Broncos were an awful defense with no Von most of the year yet still went 13-3 and made the SB. - The 2016 Packers were a defense completely massacred by injury and still made a run to the AFC Championship game. - The 2018 Chiefs were an awful defense and yet went 12-4 and almost made the SB. Were the Saints defenses worse than these teams? Possibly/Probably. But these are teams that nearly went to the SB or won the SB. Not teams that were winning 6/7 games. What made these teams have bad defenses. I guarantee you these gave up yards and not points there is a big difference. The saints bad defense led the league in big plays yards and points. (and generated no turnovers) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrnastiesNO Posted August 24, 2019 Share Posted August 24, 2019 On 8/16/2019 at 12:54 AM, Bolts223 said: I'll say this again: PPG is not that meaningful of a measurement for defense, because offense has a ton to do with that as well. If an offense is consistently sustaining drives, then the defense can only give up so many points because the opposing offense is getting less chances to possess the ball. The Patriots offense is consistently one of the best at doing this. I'm not saying that it's Brees fault that those teams are bad. But how can you really say he elevated a terrible roster when those teams did nothing? That's the point of this post. I'm not saying Brees is at fault for them winning 6-7 games, I'm saying that he obviously didn't elevate those teams enough like Peyton Manning/Brady have been able to do with some pretty crappy rosters. Or you can ask yourself what would happen if they didn't have Brees. The Saints probably wouldn't even be in New Orleans, but instead they are considered contenders year out whether they actually are or not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrnastiesNO Posted August 24, 2019 Share Posted August 24, 2019 On 8/16/2019 at 1:20 PM, Bolts223 said: Brady has also had a lot of seasons with the likes of Troy Brown/Julian Edelman or even Reche Caldwell being his #1 option at WR. My point being is this: The argument is that people are saying Brees elevates even bad teams he has been on. Every Saints team that has had any level of success since he has been there has had a lot of talent. To say that he is elevating bad rosters to do anything meaningful is just an incorrect statement. I can name instances where Peyton, Brady and Rodgers did actually elevate some pretty bad rosters into the playoffs. (Brady in 2011, Peyton Manning in 2010, Rodgers in 2016) I can't name a single instance with Brees where he took any roster that wasn't very good and did anything with it. There is no true way to evaluate this prove it fact or fictions but what we can do is look at the skill players that played for both quarterbacks or other elite QBs. For example B.Watson, Caldwell, W.Welker, L. Moore, J. Graham, and D. Branch. Just off hand, every single Wr or TE that has played for both QB's have had their best year playing with Brees at Qb. (All where beyond the twilight of there career when they join the Saints and had career years with Brees as Qb) J.Graham (Rodgers and Wilson) Brees (career years) D. Branch (Brady and Brees) Brees (career years) L. Moore (Brees and Big Ben) Brees (career years) B. Watson ( Brees and Brady Brees (career years) W. Welker (Brady and Peyton) About the same production by both QB's (Even with M. Cassell as Qb he still manage to put up similar numbers) Michael Hoomanawanui (Brees and Brady) Brees David Thomas ( Brees and Brady) Brees This seems like a cut and dry case. Receivers under Brees as Qb produce more plain and simple and Wrs that play under Brady do about the same as if they played with any "decent" Qb. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrnastiesNO Posted August 24, 2019 Share Posted August 24, 2019 On 8/16/2019 at 5:28 PM, Bolts223 said: I'm almost not even sure you are being serious because what you just said was so... wrong. Where to start: Brandin Cooks was a stud both with the Patriots in 2017 and with the Rams last season. Chris Ivory had a 1000 yard rushing season and was a pro-bowler with the Jets in 2015. Reggie Bush had 1000 yards rushing with both the Lions and Dolphins after he left the Saints. Pierre Thomas was washed and the Saints didn't keep him because he just wasn't good anymore. Meachem was merely depth both when he was with the Saints and in the one year he was with the Chargers. How is he even relevant to anything? Lance Moore's numbers declined drastically in his final year with the Saints in 2013 before he went to another team. I think that's just a matter of him hitting the wall and declining because of age. There is no basis for you to say Michael Thomas or Kamara would be bad players without Brees. Jimmy Graham is probably the only player of those you named that seemed to fall off once he left the Saints for no apparent reason. And for that I would just argue that has more to do with offensive systems than QB's, as Russell Wilson is also an elite QB. The Patriots defenses are better than the Saints, no doubt. The difference is that the Patriots on a bad year with serious roster deficiencies (on either side of the ball) are still winning 11-12 games, getting a 1st round bye and going to AFC Championship games. The Saints when they have roster deficiencies are going 7-9 and can't even win a division that is won by a 7-8-1 team. The NFC South of the last decade has been the Overall most competitive division in football. Guess who plays in the least competitive division in football. On 8/16/2019 at 5:28 PM, Bolts223 said: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bolts223 Posted August 24, 2019 Share Posted August 24, 2019 14 minutes ago, MrnastiesNO said: The NFC South of the last decade has been the Overall most competitive division in football. Guess who plays in the least competitive division in football. It's the least competitive division in football in large part because the best team in the NFL year in and year out (by far) plays in it. There are like maybe 2-3 teams in football the last 20 years that would be a consistent challenge to the Patriots if they were in the same division. And even then the Patriots would come out on top way more often than not. And no, the NFC South certainly isn't one of the most competitive divisions the last decade. In 2014 the Panthers won it with a losing record. In years like 2012, 2015, 2016 & 2018 it was just one good team at the top with the other 3 being average to bad. That's really not any different than the AFC East. The difference is that the Patriots are a team that consistently wins 12-13 games. None of the NFC South teams are even remotely consistent. The Panthers are even a meme for how consistently inconsistent they are. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
childofpudding Posted August 26, 2019 Share Posted August 26, 2019 (edited) On 8/24/2019 at 4:17 PM, MrnastiesNO said: There is no true way to evaluate this prove it fact or fictions but what we can do is look at the skill players that played for both quarterbacks or other elite QBs. For example B.Watson, Caldwell, W.Welker, L. Moore, J. Graham, and D. Branch. Just off hand, every single Wr or TE that has played for both QB's have had their best year playing with Brees at Qb. (All where beyond the twilight of there career when they join the Saints and had career years with Brees as Qb) J.Graham (Rodgers and Wilson) Brees (career years) D. Branch (Brady and Brees) Brees (career years) L. Moore (Brees and Big Ben) Brees (career years) B. Watson ( Brees and Brady Brees (career years) W. Welker (Brady and Peyton) About the same production by both QB's (Even with M. Cassell as Qb he still manage to put up similar numbers) Michael Hoomanawanui (Brees and Brady) Brees David Thomas ( Brees and Brady) Brees This seems like a cut and dry case. Receivers under Brees as Qb produce more plain and simple and Wrs that play under Brady do about the same as if they played with any "decent" Qb. Branch didnt play under Brees, for one. Also, the fact that you give the Ben Watson comparison to Brees, but then say that Welker's production with Brady and Manning were about the same, is laughable. And then you include people like David Thomas and Hooman. Hooman never had more than 100 yards receiving total in any season with NO. Then you also neglect to actually compare Caldwell, who played with Brees in SD for several years before his career year in NE. Or Moss, who had a career year in NE and also played with Culpepper. Or Lafell, who had a career year in NE and also played with Newton and Dalton. There is probably a lot more to say but I dont have time to go through it all. Both QBs obv elevate their team but this is such a terrible post lol Edited August 26, 2019 by childofpudding Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BleedTheClock Posted August 26, 2019 Share Posted August 26, 2019 It's all of the guys that are accurate and can extend plays. Baker Mayfield is one of those guys for sure. It didn't matter who we had at WR last year; they were almost always productive with Baker in there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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