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Phillip Rivers Overrated?

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, wwhickok said:

Could care less about the answer to the second part of that question lol.

but how much less?

Edited by Malfatron

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2 minutes ago, Malfatron said:

but how much less?

I care about 1%. He is prettier than Joe Flacco's eyebrows.

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Posted (edited)

Who is Philip Rivers?

  • He's Marino without '83 and '84
  • He's Roethlisberger without the first 3 playoff games of 2005 and the drive to win XLIII.
  • He's Drew Brees without 2009 and 5 seasons of 70+ completion %.
  • He's Eli without '07 and '11.
  • He's Steve Young without 1994.

Its enough to get him riches, and accolades, and pro bowls, but its not on their level.

In the era of Brady, Manning, and Big Ben in the AFC, he is just a stat guy.

 

He's the swimmer who finished 4th or 5th a bunch over 3 Olympics while Phelps took all the golds.

Edited by SkippyX

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14 minutes ago, The LBC said:

Well, that's just patently false unless you're ignoring 2010 (or discounting it because "Brady threw more TD's and less interceptions") where he led the league in passing, Y/A, and YPG while finishing Top 5 in completion % (Top 3), QB rating (Top 3), and TD's.*  Rivers was a legitimate OPOY candidate in 2010 (in the days before the league split hairs and would award OPOY and MVP separately; back then if it was Peyton or Brady up for MVP they just gave them the OPOY award too).

*Sits back and patiently waits for the goalposts to be moved to "I mean 'elite' as in all-time elite."

You and I have different definitions of elite. Look at Rivers' best year then compare it to actual elite QBs (Rodgers, Brees, Brady, Peyton). All of those guys have at least five seasons that are superior to Rivers' best year.

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44 minutes ago, SkippyX said:

Who is Philip Rivers?

  • He's Marino without '83 and '84
  • He's Roethlisberger without the first 3 playoff games of 2005 and the drive to win XLIII.
  • He's Drew Brees without 2009 and 5 seasons of 70+ completion %.
  • He's Eli without '07 and '11.
  • He's Steve Young without 1994.

Its enough to get him riches, and accolades, and pro bowls, but its not on their level.

In the era of Brady, Manning, and Big Ben in the AFC, he is just a stat guy.

 

He's the swimmer who finished 4th or 5th a bunch over 3 Olympics while Phelps took all the golds.

You are putting Eli over Rivers for 2 games and ignoring the huge discrepancy in their career numbers in avgs and efficiencies. In no world is Eli a better qb than Rivers. Also saying he was the 12th best of the 2000s is also not true.

Why are we overvaluing 2 or 3 games post seasons or not, over numerous seasons.  Outside of Peyton, Brady, Brees and Rodgers.. you can make a real case for Rivers over any qbs of the 2000s in totality. Meaning total level of play throughout the 2000s (Consistency, sustainability, volume, efficiency)

It's also so disingenious how the anti-Rivers crowd keeps ignoring that 10 of his 13 playing seasons have been with Norv and Mccoy. Guys who struggle to keep coordinator jobs.

His 3 years without those guys. 35-13. 

So random how any real football fans knows how important coaching is, but in some debates like this, it gets completely ignored.

Or circumstances get ignored. Is Ben a lessor QB since 2008? Or has not even a top 3 defense hurt him.

Is Brees a lessor QB since 2009 or Rodgers since 2010? Or has circumstances changed in aiding their success. How about Brady from 05 to 13? 

Basically the people saying he isn't a HOFer are saying 1 arbitrary accolade can change that. Meaning if he is 1st team all pro, or MVP or wins a SB this year... he goes from not HOF to HOF. That means IYHO you see him at worst as a brink HOFer. If it's that close to yay or nay. 

 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Art_Vandalay said:

You and I have different definitions of elite. Look at Rivers' best year then compare it to actual elite QBs (Rodgers, Brees, Brady, Peyton). All of those guys have at least five seasons that are superior to Rivers' best year.

Rivers top 3 years.

2008, 2009 and 2018: 

 312 478  65.3   4009 34 7.1  11 2.3    67 8.4   8.8 12.8 250.6 105.5
  378 544 69.5   4478 32 5.9  11 2.0    60 8.2   8.5 11.8 279.9  105.5
  347 508 68.3   4308 32 6.3  12 2.4    75 8.5   8.7 12.4  269.3 105.5

 

Rodgers and Brees have 3 years with higher passer rating. Brady 4, but one of them is 105.6 and Peyton has 3, but one is 105.8.  So 5? No, just not true.

 

I misspoke earlier. Rivers has 5 seasons with atleast 100 passer rating (min 400 attempts). 4 that are 104 PR or higher. Peyton, Brady and Rodgers have 4 and Brees has 5. No one else in league history has that many.

IMO Passer Rating is the most telling individual indicator of a QB's level of play. Unless someone else has a more telling stat.

Edited by Bearerofnews

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Rivers is basically the Frank Gore of QBs. IMO Rivers should make it to the HoF if he has a few more of his standard seasons.

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1 hour ago, Bearerofnews said:

You are putting Eli over Rivers for 2 games and ignoring the huge discrepancy in their career numbers in avgs and efficiencies. In no world is Eli a better qb than Rivers. Also saying he was the 12th best of the 2000s is also not true.

Why are we overvaluing 2 or 3 games post seasons or not, over numerous seasons.  Outside of Peyton, Brady, Brees and Rodgers.. you can make a real case for Rivers over any qbs of the 2000s in totality. Meaning total level of play throughout the 2000s (Consistency, sustainability, volume, efficiency)

It's also so disingenious how the anti-Rivers crowd keeps ignoring that 10 of his 13 playing seasons have been with Norv and Mccoy. Guys who struggle to keep coordinator jobs.

His 3 years without those guys. 35-13. 

So random how any real football fans knows how important coaching is, but in some debates like this, it gets completely ignored.

Or circumstances get ignored. Is Ben a lessor QB since 2008? Or has not even a top 3 defense hurt him.

Is Brees a lessor QB since 2009 or Rodgers since 2010? Or has circumstances changed in aiding their success. How about Brady from 05 to 13? 

Basically the people saying he isn't a HOFer are saying 1 arbitrary accolade can change that. Meaning if he is 1st team all pro, or MVP or wins a SB this year... he goes from not HOF to HOF. That means IYHO you see him at worst as a brink HOFer. If it's that close to yay or nay. 

 

Just fail on so many levels. Rivers has played in one whole AFCCG in his career and he went 19-37 211 0 TDs and 2 picks for a 46.1 rating.

  • If that does not scream greatness then I don't know what does.

Norv Turner is the guy who built the triplets offense in Dallas that won 3 Super Bowls.

  • He won a playoff game in DC with the worst owner in sports and had that team heading in the right direction until that fantasy football clown forced Jeff George on him.
    • I lived there during this time. I know it much better than you. Norv was a good coach who had morons for bosses.
    • The following year was the 10 million dollar bet that Snyder lost with Marty
  • He had no shot in Oakland with an old and beat down team and senile Davis drafting this garbage for him:
    • 2004 - Robert Gallery instead of Fitzgerald, Rivers, or Big Ben
      • Jake Grove, Stuart Schweigart, Carlos Francis
    • 2005 - Fabian Washington the pick before Aaron Rodgers
      • Stanford Routt, Andrew Walter, (1 decent LB in Kirk Morrison)
  • He took over a 14-2 team that could not win a playoff game and got them to the AFCCG the next year.
    • Rivers played some of his best postseason ball with Norv as the coach.
    • A banged up Rivers was bad and could not find the end zone and a banged up Tomlinson barely played
    • Please explain how this could possibly be Norv's fault but NOT River's fault?
  • Norv did not shine with a crappy 49ers team for a year before SD and he did not shine with a crappy Cleveland team after
  • He spent 3 years in Minnesota which saw Peterson blow out a knee in year 1 and attack his kid in year 3
    • Bridgewater got mangled and he guided Sam Bradford to his best statistical season as a pro (99.3 rating 20 TDs to 5 picks)
  • Now he is in Carolina trying to reclaim the Cam Newton that imploded in the Super Bowl of 2015.
    • Cam's passer rating went from sub-80s over 2016-17 up to 94.2 last year under Turner.

Its accurate to say that Rivers is a better pro because Norv Turner taught him how to be a consistent pro bowl QB for 6 years

  • 3 of his 5 best years were with Turner and the only time he led the league in yards TDs, and rating was all under Norv
  • We can't stop you from any delusions that Norv Turner is Rich Kotite or Mike McCoy but we are not buying it at all.

 

Tom Brady from 05-13 is a first ballot Hall of Fame QB.

  • He had a top 10 best single season in '07 and was MVP
    • He was MVP again in 2010
  • He had a 99.4 rating in the regular season with 262 TDs to 82 picks.
  • He still comes out as a 9-8 playoff QB with 32 TDs to 19 picks. 
  • He played in 5 AFCCGs and 2 Super Bowls.
    • We all know it took a helmet catch to stop him from 19-0
  • He beat Rivers head to head in 2 playoff games and outplayed him both times.
    • His stats were not great but he had the game winning drive in one game and he was just enough better than Rivers in the other.
    • He beat Rivers in San Diego with Reche Caldwell, Jabar Gaffney, and a 35 year old Troy Brown 
  • He had 5 games over 100+ rating compared to Rivers 4 in his entire existence.
  • You have proven our argument since Brady in those years was better than Rivers entire career.

 

We get that you are a Chargers fanatic who worships Rivers. We are not impressed.

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10 hours ago, Starless said:

The thinnest of margins separates a Philip Rivers career from a Peyton Manning career.

This isn't true at all. I think higher of Rivers than most (to me he's the most deserving hall of famer out of his draft class), but even if you take away the ring difference, there is a SUBSTANTIAL divide in accolades between Rivers and Manning. The question around Manning was always if he could win a superbowl. But that was it. He never struggled winning anything else. He ended his career winning like 70% of his career games. Rivers isn't that much over 50/50, at like 56%. Peyton was a constant in the playoffs, even if he wasn't winning there. Rivers had like an 8 season stretch where he made the postseason once. Peyton was a 7 time first team all-pro, 14 time pro-bowler, Rivers is at 0 and 7, respectively.

Let's not act like all that's separating Rivers and an all-time great like Manning is the ring. There's way more to it than that.

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Posted (edited)

Its rare to find a nugget of such cherry-picking overreaching as the comment about Norv struggling to keep a coordinator job.

  • First of all Norv has left 3 coordinator positions to become a head coach.
  • He left Cleveland because the head coach (Chudzinski) got fired.
  • He left San Diego when Mike Riley got fired and they hated Norv so much that he was the next head coach there after Marty.

So the one instance that could possibly apply at all in his entire 30+ year NFL coaching career was Mike Zimmer firing him after 3 years.

  • That same fool fired the next guy after 13 games and his team put up 10 points at home in a week 17 playoff game.
    • How dare DeFillipo not feature the run game with a bad O-line and mediocre running backs when he's got Diggs, Theilen, and Rudolph to catch passes?
      • In that week 17 games the Vikings ran 14 times and dropped back to pass 38 times.
    • I'd say that a Turner vs Zimmer credibility battle goes to Turner in a blowout.

As a head coach he lasted 7 years under Dan Snyder and actually did a decent job and won a playoff game

He lasted 6 years in San Diego where his worst season was 7-9.

  • He got to one AFCCG and missed out on another because:
    • Rivers lost a turnover battle with Mark Sanchez
      • 1 pick stalled a drive at the Jets 36 and the other pick led to a Jets TD
    • Keading missed 2 make-able FGs (36 and 40 yards) and a 57 yard try right before halftime
    • Final Score: Jets 17 Chargers 14
    • I'd like to know how you blame the coach but not the QB for that one as well.

 

Edited by SkippyX

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Posted (edited)
9 hours ago, Bearerofnews said:

IMO Passer Rating is the most telling individual indicator of a QB's level of play. Unless someone else has a more telling stat.

I think QBR is extremely flawed. If we go by QBR, then that would mean Sam Bradford's 2017 season was far superior to any Philip Rivers season. I'm going by a combination of passing yards, comp pct, and TD:INT ratio.

Edited by Art_Vandalay

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18 minutes ago, Art_Vandalay said:

I think QBR is extremely flawed. If we go by QBR, then that would mean Sam Bradford's 2017 season was far superior to any Philip Rivers season. I'm going by a combination of passing yards, comp pct, and TD:INT ratio.

I think you mean the 2016 season for Bradford, since he only played 2 games in 2017.

For a QB, the YPA is also important.

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He's a hall of fame talent without any notable accomplishments. The comparison to Dan Fouts is bizarre because Fouts was part of an offensive revolution in football. Dan once had almost 1000 yards more than the next best QB one year. 

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