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You Are Wrong About Lamar Jackson - Warren Sharp


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18 hours ago, sammymvpknight said:

I just don’t believe in him. Only because we’ve seen this before. We’ve seen these elite athlete running QBs with questionable minds for the game before. We’ve seen RGIII, Vick, and Kaepernick have immediate success after getting figured out and bombing. Heck...he could even be good this year and I still won’t buy into him. 

And why does Russell Wilson get brought up in every one of these threads? Because he’s black? Give me a break...Wilson never fit the mold of the group above. He was always a good pocket passer that had the ability to escape the pocket, not unlike Steve Young, Aaron Rodgers, John Elway, or a slew of talented WHITE pocket passers. So lumping Wilson in is very lazy. 

Wilson gets brought up because he came into the league with RG3, Kaepernick, Tebow was still around, Vick with the Eagles. And he's a great runner. But as you said, he was always a good pocket passer.

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6 minutes ago, diamondbull424 said:

Darnold just missed games last year as a “pocket passer”. Therefore the argument that says he’s less likely to get hurt is nonsense.

Running QBs are always at a higher risk of getting injured than pocket passers. 

6 minutes ago, diamondbull424 said:

The only pocket passers that consistently don’t miss time are the ones with great pocket presence.

Does Kirk Cousins have great pocket presence? Matthew Stafford? Matt Ryan? Joe Flacco? Jared Goff? Blake Bortles? 

In fact, the counter argument can be made. The QBs that consistently (comparatively for a QB) either get injured (and play through it) or miss games, are usually the mobile guys. Wentz, Romo, Big Ben, Cam, Rodgers, Mariota, Luck, Tannehill, etc.

6 minutes ago, diamondbull424 said:

Now logically I understand that the more hits one takes, the higher the chance of injury. But this isn’t the same league that Vick played in where if a defender caught you they could destroy your soul. This isn’t even the same league that RG3 played in as a young player where a Haloti Ngata could devour you. There’s a lot more protection for the offensive players from defenders delivering massive hits... else they’ll be penalized.

Massive hits are perfectly legal if they’re above the QB’s knees and below the helmet. RG3 getting laid out by Ngata, IIRC, happened in bounds after RGIII became a runner. Nothing illegal about that play. 

And hits don’t have to be illegal or bone-breaking in order to take their toll. We’ve seen Cam tank hits early in his career, but now there’s always something with him. Same happened to Vick. It’s partly age, but the hits do their damage and make these guys seem older than they are. 

6 minutes ago, diamondbull424 said:

Whats more, many people refuse to acknowledge that durability isn’t some static concept. Some players are just tougher than others and endure injuries less than others. RG3 was injured multiple times in his college career, did we really think that lack of durability would suddenly go away at the NFL level? Mike Vick was injured multiple times at the collegiate level, did we really think he would somehow grow a more durable body once entering the pros?

No, but those players never developed their game so that they could rely on their arms instead of their legs (sans 2010 Vick, who still ran a lot). Same with Kaepernick. Their running style wasn’t going to be something that’d last them their whole careers and it’ll be the same for Lamar unless his game develops.

More wear and tear isn’t something that helps in this conversation, like you’re saying it does. 

6 minutes ago, diamondbull424 said:

Lamar Jackson rushed for more yards and with similar carries as Saquan Barkley, yet remained as durable as Barkley. This isn’t to say that Barkley won’t get hurt or that Lamar won’t get hurt, it simply means that those tough hits that he is destined to take, statistically speaking, based off of his innate body durability, he might take a few more of them before a big injury occurs.

Bro-science...

A QB taking off and a running back running between the tackles are exceptionally different. And using a 1-to-1 with Barkley isn’t going to prove durability. I’d look at historical precedence of mobile QBs before just picking Barkley’s name out of a hat. 

6 minutes ago, diamondbull424 said:

Using Vick and RG3 as arguments against Lamar in the durability department is lazy and nonsensical. Neither ran as much as Lamar in college and both displayed far less durability.

It’s not just Vick and RGIII. It’s mobile QBs in general. Look at Wentz. Look at Rodgers. Look at Mariota. Look at Tannehill. Look at younger-Big Ben.

The more you run and move around, the more susceptible you are to A) continuous punishment, and B) high speed collisions. 

Not really arguable. 

6 minutes ago, diamondbull424 said:

So again, saying 21 year old Lamar Jackson doesn’t compare to 24 year old Russell Wilson as a passer that is true. But will 24 year old Lamar compare to him? We don’t know. Because 21 year old Russell Wilson was a 58% collegiate passer that needed to eventually transfer to another program for NFL evaluators to give him a shot as a QB.

I didn’t say anything about Russell Wilson.

I surmised that having a running, mobile QB is going to open up the risk of injury more so than it would having a pure pocket passer. Historical precedence backs that up. Nobody said he’s going to flame out of the league with injuries because of RGIII or Vick - they’re just examples of QBs that took punishment because their passing minds never developed. 

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2 minutes ago, Yin-Yang said:

I surmised that having a running, mobile QB is going to open up the risk of injury more so than it would having a pure pocket passer. Historical precedence backs that up. Nobody said he’s going to flame out of the league with injuries because of RGIII or Vick - they’re just examples of QBs that took punishment because their passing minds never developed. 

I think Vick's punishment was for a different reason.

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19 hours ago, sammymvpknight said:

And why does Russell Wilson get brought up in every one of these threads? Because he’s black? Give me a break...Wilson never fit the mold of the group above. He was always a good pocket passer that had the ability to escape the pocket, not unlike Steve Young, Aaron Rodgers, John Elway, or a slew of talented WHITE pocket passers. So lumping Wilson in is very lazy. 

17 minutes ago, Calamity_Cometh said:

Wilson gets brought up because he came into the league with RG3, Kaepernick, Tebow was still around, Vick with the Eagles. And he's a great runner. But as you said, he was always a good pocket passer.

Russell Wilson's age 21 season was his last at NC State. Lamar Jackson's age 21 season was his first in the NFL. Please actually look at what Russell Wilson did at NC State.

I'll make it easy for you: https://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/players/russell-wilson-1.html

Again, I'm not comparing Russell Wilson and Lamar Jackson. I'm just disputing the narrative that Russell Wilson was always an amazingly accurate passer and how it's used to suggest you can't improve in that regard.

Edited by wackywabbit
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24 minutes ago, wackywabbit said:

Russell Wilson's age 21 season was his last at NC State. Lamar Jackson's age 21 season was his first in the NFL. Please actually look at what Russell Wilson did at NC State.

I'll make it easy for you: https://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/players/russell-wilson-1.html

Again, I'm not comparing Russell Wilson and Lamar Jackson. I'm just disputing the narrative that Russell Wilson was always an amazingly accurate passer and how it's used to suggest you can't improve in that regard.

I think you are confusing someone being called an amazingly accurate passer with being called a good pocket QB. Wilson was always a pocket QB who could make plays with his legs. Lamar is not that type at least not yet they have completely different styles. Age isn't as important as experience. Jackson will be 23 in 4 months anyway so by next season with 1.5 years of starting in the NFL and 3 years of starting in college we'll pretty much know if he is a Wilson type QB or who he appears to be. Which doesn't mean he can't throw for 3000 yards and have 25 TD and be successful he just probably won't ever look like a Russell Wilson/Steve Young back there.

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50 minutes ago, wackywabbit said:

Russell Wilson's age 21 season was his last at NC State. Lamar Jackson's age 21 season was his first in the NFL. Please actually look at what Russell Wilson did at NC State.

I'll make it easy for you: https://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/players/russell-wilson-1.html

Again, I'm not comparing Russell Wilson and Lamar Jackson. I'm just disputing the narrative that Russell Wilson was always an amazingly accurate passer and how it's used to suggest you can't improve in that regard.

I don't disagree with you at all. I meant to say that yes, you're right.

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5 hours ago, Yin-Yang said:

Running QBs are always at a higher risk of getting injured than pocket passers. 

Okay? Where did I say they weren’t? My argument is that if Player A is a pocket passer that’s shows recent durability concerns and Player B is a durable mobile QB, Player A is the bigger concern. As opposed to a projected problem, we have a known problem at hand.

5 hours ago, Yin-Yang said:

Does Kirk Cousins have great pocket presence? Matthew Stafford? Matt Ryan? Joe Flacco? Jared Goff? Blake Bortles? 

In fact, the counter argument can be made. The QBs that consistently (comparatively for a QB) either get injured (and play through it) or miss games, are usually the mobile guys. Wentz, Romo, Big Ben, Cam, Rodgers, Mariota, Luck, Tannehill, etc.

You’re creating a strawman here and I won’t fall for it. The argument was “running” QBs vs pocket passers. The argument isn’t for Jackson to stop being mobile in the pocket, the argument is that he runs a lot and thus he will get hurt like Vick and RG3. The argument is for him to play more like Russell Wilson- Who is a mobile QB. Do mobile QBs take a beating, sure. But is there a vast difference between the careers of mobile QBs and Vick/RG3? Absolutely. Aaron Rodgers is still playing, Russell a Wilson is still playing, Big Ben is still playing, etc.

5 hours ago, Yin-Yang said:

Massive hits are perfectly legal if they’re above the QB’s knees and below the helmet. RG3 getting laid out by Ngata, IIRC, happened in bounds after RGIII became a runner. Nothing illegal about that play. 

And hits don’t have to be illegal or bone-breaking in order to take their toll. We’ve seen Cam tank hits early in his career, but now there’s always something with him. Same happened to Vick. It’s partly age, but the hits do their damage and make these guys seem older than they are. 

Like I said, but you seem to have ignored, hits are going to happen. Any player can get injured on any play in football. Being exposed to more hits is always going to lead to more POTENTIAL for injury. I believe you ignored that part.

Now in terms of legal hits, there have been numerous “legal hits” that have been flagged due to “excessive force”. That wasn’t around when RG3 was running around. With that Ngata play that hit happened within the safe strike zone, but Ngata’s body clobbered Griffins knee. That hit nowadays arguably could produce a penalty, even if it’s perfectly legal.

In terms of accumulative damage from hits, same can be argued of Joe Flacco. He was a tough SOB and tanked plenty of hits... until he tore his ACL and that all fell apart. Now his body has been breaking down. Flacco is a pocket passer. Guys like Big Ben, Aaron Rodgers, etc. Those guys pass the ball plenty took hits and their bodies are breaking down. But if Jackson has a similar career to any of those guys, I’m sure he nor Ravens fans will mind. They’re all over 30 and still starting QBs in this league.

5 hours ago, Yin-Yang said:

No, but those players never developed their game so that they could rely on their arms instead of their legs (sans 2010 Vick, who still ran a lot). Same with Kaepernick. Their running style wasn’t going to be something that’d last them their whole careers and it’ll be the same for Lamar unless his game develops.

More wear and tear isn’t something that helps in this conversation, like you’re saying it does. 

Yes, which is the point that Ravens fans have argued. Lamar is being blasted for running around as much as he did last year as a 21 year old QB. What’s more the prevailing narrative is that Lamar CANT DEVELOP as they have enough evidence of this after his rookie season as a 21 year old in an offense installed on a bye week with receivers he had minimal reps with in practice because he was anticipated to sit the entire year.

Where have I said that? Never said it. What I have said is that there is a great sample size of Lamar Jackson displaying excellent durability via his playing style. Which means short term that should be a boon to him as he develops into a better passer. Guys like Vick and RG3 didn’t have the durability to allow them to simultaneously develop as a passer as producing big plays. Which is why they are terrible comparisons. Kaepernick is a better comparison, but Kaep didn’t start until he was 25 and at a point where development potential has largely been capped, which is what I argued in my post you quoted. Perhaps that point wasn’t clear enough.

6 hours ago, Yin-Yang said:

Bro-science...

A QB taking off and a running back running between the tackles are exceptionally different. And using a 1-to-1 with Barkley isn’t going to prove durability. I’d look at historical precedence of mobile QBs before just picking Barkley’s name out of a hat. 

The only thing you’ve convinced me of with this argument is that the words “Bro” and “Science” should never be used in the same sentence together.

Since you’re changing the goalpost in terms of “classification”, I will instead revert to the classic Madden QB classification system. “Scrambling QBs”, “Balanced QBs”, and “Pocket Passer” QBs. We have very little data on Scrambling QBs: Randall Cunningham, Steve McNair, Mike Vick, RG3, Colin Kaepernick, and Cam Newton. I counted all the QBs with a 100 rush attempt season to their credit (that I could think of anyway). McNair, Cunningham, and it looks like Newton will all have had long careers. McNair might ultimately end up the most comparable of all the names that I watched play. He ran young and then develop more and more as a passer while staying healthy and durable. Lamar’s durability to this point gives him a chance to develop in a way that the lack of durability and lack of youth allowed for RG3, Vick, and Kaep.

6 hours ago, Yin-Yang said:

It’s not just Vick and RGIII. It’s mobile QBs in general. Look at Wentz. Look at Rodgers. Look at Mariota. Look at Tannehill. Look at younger-Big Ben.

The more you run and move around, the more susceptible you are to A) continuous punishment, and B) high speed collisions. 

Not really arguable. 

Again. Didn’t argue this. I’m arguing that the continuous comparisons to some of the least durable scrambling QBs makes little sense when Lamar’s history doesn’t align with their history.

Not even arguable.

6 hours ago, Yin-Yang said:

I didn’t say anything about Russell Wilson.

I surmised that having a running, mobile QB is going to open up the risk of injury more so than it would having a pure pocket passer. Historical precedence backs that up. Nobody said he’s going to flame out of the league with injuries because of RGIII or Vick - they’re just examples of QBs that took punishment because their passing minds never developed. 

I’ll apologize for conflating some of the arguments in this thread with your own. However many people HAVE argued that Lamar will flame out of the league due to injuries. This is why the Vick and RG3 comparisons were the main target of my post.

The Russell Wilson part was conflation. Moreso referring to other points made in this thread on that topic. The point of the comment is simply that comparing players at different chapters/age makes little sense. Lamar is still growing as a QB.

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I’ll apologize for conflating some of the arguments in this thread with your own. However many people HAVE argued that Lamar will flame out of the league due to injuries. This is why the Vick and RG3 comparisons were the main target of my post.

The Russell Wilson part was conflation. Moreso referring to other points made in this thread on that topic. The point of the comment is simply that comparing players at different chapters/age makes little sense. Lamar is still growing as a QB.

Gotcha. I had a longer post typed up but the TL:DR is that I don’t feel like Vick and RGIII are the only historical comparisons for scrambling QBs and that other narratives or other opinions of Jackson are not my own. 

Jackson has shown to be durable in college, but I do not feel college is a large enough sample size or a good representative of the type of collisions that happen in the NFL.

I also feel the laundry list of scrambling quarterbacks far exceed just Vick, RGIII, and Kaepernick. So with that opinion established, I believe there is strong enough historical precedence to have concern over what type of effects continuous/helmet rattling hits can have on a QB. So if Jackson continues to run/be used as a runner as much as he is, I would be concerned. If he develops his mind as a passer, improves his physical tools, and the coaching uses him more as a QB, then those concerns can be mitigated. But at the moment, I find those concerns to be legitimate. FWIW, I think the same of Josh Allen, Carson Wentz (which is a gimme, given his injury history), Dak Prescott, potentially Kyler Murray, and even Patrick Mahomes (to a lesser extent). 

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2 hours ago, Yin-Yang said:

 

Gotcha. I had a longer post typed up but the TL:DR is that I don’t feel like Vick and RGIII are the only historical comparisons for scrambling QBs and that other narratives or other opinions of Jackson are not my own. 

Jackson has shown to be durable in college, but I do not feel college is a large enough sample size or a good representative of the type of collisions that happen in the NFL.

I also feel the laundry list of scrambling quarterbacks far exceed just Vick, RGIII, and Kaepernick. So with that opinion established, I believe there is strong enough historical precedence to have concern over what type of effects continuous/helmet rattling hits can have on a QB. So if Jackson continues to run/be used as a runner as much as he is, I would be concerned. If he develops his mind as a passer, improves his physical tools, and the coaching uses him more as a QB, then those concerns can be mitigated. But at the moment, I find those concerns to be legitimate. FWIW, I think the same of Josh Allen, Carson Wentz (which is a gimme, given his injury history), Dak Prescott, potentially Kyler Murray, and even Patrick Mahomes (to a lesser extent). 

See this mindset doesn’t bother me. You aren’t systematically targeting Jackson with your perspective. You have concerns for everyone that moves around and makes plays. You’ve mentioned Big Ben, Patrick Mahomes, Carson Wentz, Andrew Luck, Aaron Rodgers, etc.

Those guys move and takes hits. But it’s a gamble you’ve got to take sometimes. Big Ben’s heroics led to championships. I’m sure Mahomes playmaking will also lead to a championship or more when it’s all said and done.

Edited by diamondbull424
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