Andre vs Calvin: Superior Johnson?

[UKTexans]

3 minutes ago, iknowcool said:

Let's not pretend like Schaub was some scrub for all of those 71 games.  He was one of the better QBs in the league for a 5 year stretch, which is the same length CJ played with a good and healthy Stafford.

Those early years should have been AJs prime though. 

[iknowcool]

2 minutes ago, texans_uk said:

Those early years should have been AJs prime though. 

And the early years of CJ's career should have been his prime as well.  Instead, he spent it with guys like washed up Culpepper, Stanton, Orlovsky, Hill, and rookie Stafford.  

I'm not disagreeing that Andre wasn't in the best situation, but it isn't like he had it that much worse (if at all) than Calvin.

[JaguarCrazy2832]

On 9/5/2017 at 5:15 PM, EliteTexan80 said:

I'm an Andre Johnson fan, and I pick Calvin. Pretty straightforward, actually.

This exactly. 

[Jetzger]

Calvin, but I don't think it's a very large gap.  Andre has a number of monster seasons.

[JAF-N72EX]

6 hours ago, texans_uk said:

Andre didn't have the same tangibles as Calvin and as such was an absolute expert at route running. 

Valid point and I can certianly agree with that. He wasn't known for things such as using his size to get position and win those jump balls down-field like CJ was. Instead he had to rely more on being fundamentally sound almost to perfection. Which he accomplished. I have said for years that if there was ever a WR that anyone should choose to learn from at that position, it would be him, hands down. He was the perfect example of what you would expect out of a prototypical wide-out.

That said though, his biggest asset and where he shined the most was short-to-intermediate routes where he could take advantage of his YAC ability. In that aspect he was better than CJ without a doubt. But CJ was no slouch in this area either. 

Which brings us to the deeper routes in which CJ has the clear advantage in, even if just by being given more opportunities. His attempt rate at running those deeper nines, posts, corners, and digs were out of this world and he obviously still had alot of success when doing so. Now this isn't to say that Andre wasn't good enough to have the same type of success in the same system because I definitely think he would/could have given the same amount of opportunities but he wasn't for whatever reason. Whether it was due to play call/design, limited QB ability, mixture of the 2...I don't know.

Now some may say 'well running a nine or a post is not as easy as timing routes' and I agree. In fact I'm usually pretty critical of WR's that run those type routes on a regular basis. But not in this instance regarding CJ. Just for the simple fact that it's not as if he rarely ever ran any other route(s) &/or that he had a low success rate when he did. He had success at all ranges.

tl;dr: That's why I give the slight advantage to CJ in terms of route running and what I meant earlier by having a wider range in his repertoire than AJ. Basically, Short-intermediate route, it's AJ by a small margin. Deeper routes it's CJ by a decent margin. Therefore, CJ by a small margin. That's Just my opinion.

[JAF-N72EX]

6 hours ago, iknowcool said:

Let's not pretend like Schaub was some scrub for all of those 71 games.  He was one of the better QBs in the league for a 5 year stretch, which is the same length CJ played with a good and healthy Stafford.

I get your point here and I agree that neither of them were in ideal situations to say the least. But even if you used the same 5 year QB comparison that you did, I still see it as AJ's prime was 10 years with 5 years of juggling QB's compared to CJ's 8 with only 3 years of juggling QB's.  

[iknowcool]

12 hours ago, JustAnotherFan said:

I get your point here and I agree that neither of them were in ideal situations to say the least. But even if you used the same 5 year QB comparison that you did, I still see it as AJ's prime was 10 years with 5 years of juggling QB's compared to CJ's 8 with only 3 years of juggling QB's.  

It should be 4 years for CJ given Stafford only played 3 games in 2010 and 10 games in 2009 (on top of simply not being very good as a rookie).  

[Soko]

Megaton. 

I wish the HOF was stingier - only true greats. Calvin Johnson fits the bill, I don't think Andre does. Or at least, not as much as the former does.

[Uncle Buck]

I have a ton of respect for Andre, but come on, man, compared to Megatron?  Give me the big guy from the Motor City every single time.

[tyler735]

8 hours ago, tonyto36 said:

Always thought Calvin was overrated.  I think a lot of the ESPN hype made people think he was better than he was.  

HOF, sure, but not top 3 all time like it was portrayed.

At his peak I think he was top 3. Obviously his career numbers won't stack up with the best ever but at his peak there were few better (Rice/Moss) and only Moss rivals his freakish athleticism at WR

[TheKillerNacho]

Calvin was obviously the better player, but both will make the HoF so it's kinda moot.

[Iamcanadian]

11 hours ago, TheKillerNacho said:

Calvin was obviously the better player, but both will make the HoF so it's kinda moot.

I agree, they will both be HoFers. I should mention that Stafford career record is 51-53, so he isn't all that solid as a QB either, just has a big arm. If you are going to start a team and have to draft a WR, Calvin at 6'5", 230lbs. and running a 4.30 40 would go before A.J. every day of the year. He would probably get picked before Rice for that matter. Imagine if he played with a great QB his whole career.

[UKTexans]

On 07/09/2017 at 4:27 AM, JustAnotherFan said:

Deeper routes it's CJ by a decent margin

Deeper route running isn't half as difficult as short and intermediate, Calvin had such a speed and size advantage over every single DB that he could basically run by anyone he wanted to, and if he didn't out run him, he'd just out jump then. 

[SwiftPride]

I'll take Megatron. Even as a Lions homer I don't think I'm too crazy. Better athlete and better player.

Neither had great QB play but Stafford was the best the Lions have had...ever...

I wonder what Megatron could have done with a great QB and a winning team. Being Lionized is a real thing.

[BlaqOptic]

On 9/6/2017 at 2:00 PM, JustAnotherFan said:

It's CJ, but all of this "not even close" talk is nonsense. CJ was the more explosive receiver, while AJ was more of a finesse. 

AJ's lower TD rate says more about Kubiac's play calling in the red zone and playing 4-5 years with two versatile backs in Slaton and Foster than it does about AJ's inability to find the end-zone. His avg target % in the red zone went from 29% down to 14% starting in 2010, which was coincidentally Arian Foster's breakout year, and dropping as low as 11% in 2011. 

You also have to factor in that while CJ may have had to endure a disastrous roller-coaster at QB (and a dysfunctional organization) for his first few years but at least he eventually had some stability with a solid young QB in Stafford that he could grow with. Which is alot more than what AJ could ever say in his entire career. AJ joined a brand new organization that was still settling in and looking for talent. During Andre's prime years('04-'13), he had a mentally and physically broken David Carr throwing to him for 48 games. Matt schaub for another 71. Sage Rosenfels for 12. And TJ Yates and Case Keenum for 9. 

Comparing both of their primes (CJ: '08-'15 / AJ: '04-'13) and all things considered, I see it like this: Margin is emphasized by the amount of > marks

• Route Running = CJ>>AJ
• Body control: CJ>AJ
• Creating separation: AJ>CJ
• Hands = AJ>CJ
• Catch Radius = CJ>>>AJ
• Red Zone = CJ>AJ
• Big Play threat = CJ>>AJ
• Short-Yardage situation = AJ>CJ 
• 3rd Down = This is tough to decide once you start really breaking things down. Gun to my head, I'm taking a sure-handed AJ. 
• YAC = Equal. CJ averaged more yards per season (413.6 to 394.8) but AJ averaged more per game ( 28.6 to 27.1). 
• OPP Secondaries = CJ>>>AJ : CJ played against some tough competition in his division alone (Brown, Woodson, Harris, Tillman, Winfield, Collins, Williams, etc,)

What?! 

Andre Johnson was a much better route runner than Calvin. And Calvin had much better hands than Andre. There were were like 3 seasons where Dre was 1 or 2 in drops.