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TheVillain112

TNF: Chiefs vs. Patriots (Opening Day!!!)

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110 members have voted

  1. 1. Who wins?

    • Patriots
      62
    • Chiefs
      48


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12 minutes ago, Revel8 said:

They tell us almost nothing pertaining to the discussion, as they measure the wrong factors.  You're not going to see Brady unnecessarily being on the injury report for 3 straight years through this data.  You're not going to see how they listed impact players as questionable for weeks on end, only to suddenly see them play without ever having a probable tag.  These things cannot be identified through this data.  It would take weeks to compile and write the data that's actually relevant to this discussion.

Actually they can, because if the Patriots were doing it AT A HIGHER RATE than others, the numbers would show that.

Their percentage of players that played with Questionable, Doubtful, Probable tags would be disproportionate to other teams in the league, and they aren't.

No one argued the Patriots don't mess the injury report, most simply disagreed with your assertion the Pats are the only ones that do it and/or much more often than everyone else.

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24 minutes ago, Revel8 said:

You weren't even involved in these discussions...and you're trying to tell me how they went?  If you don't want to believe that Brady's entire history of WRs were being put down by Patriots fans you don't have to, but it's not as if your personal belief is required, or relevant, in the first place. 

By far, the most common argument I've seen Patriots fans give for why they think Brady is the GOAT is because of rings.  That's the very first thing pointed to in the majority of cases.  Yet it's a bad argument as long as you understand how the game of football works.  It's pointed out by the skeptics that it takes an entire team to win and lose games, and Brady has been on great teams nearly his entire career.  This then typically leads to these Patriots fans to resort to trying to argue how bad his defense was, how Brady has had not help, etc.

You aren't providing any proof of these discussions, your just using anecdotal recollections of discussions you say you had.

I've been a member on this forum for years and I'm telling you the majority of fans that argue Brady is GOAT don't just yell rings, or say he's had zero WRs. They talk about his unique mix of everything that goes into the GOAT conversations.

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13 minutes ago, Pats#1 said:

Actually they can, because if the Patriots were doing it AT A HIGHER RATE than others, the numbers would show that.

Their percentage of players that played with Questionable, Doubtful, Probable tags would be disproportionate to other teams in the league, and they aren't.

No one argued the Patriots don't mess the injury report, most simply disagreed with your assertion the Pats are the only ones that do it and/or much more often than everyone else.

You don't seem to understand what the argument is in the first place.  The argument is not that more probable, questionable, etc Patriots players played than other teams since 2009.  Though that does seem that could be the case. 

The argument is that the Patriots are different than other teams when it comes to lying on their injury reports over the past decade an a half.  They would do things like putting their key impact players...not all players...as questionable for weeks on end.  Then these key players would suddenly play one week (and typically play well) without ever being put on the injury report as probable.  These types of tactics were frequent for the Patriots, but rarely seen from other teams. 

This is also likely why we have former Patriots players pointing out that:

"That was just a false report. That’s just how things go [in New England]" and the Patriots misrepresenting injuries on official reports is "how they do things."

 

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19 minutes ago, Pats#1 said:

You aren't providing any proof of these discussions, your just using anecdotal recollections of discussions you say you had.

I've been a member on this forum for years and I'm telling you the majority of fans that argue Brady is GOAT don't just yell rings, or say he's had zero WRs. They talk about his unique mix of everything that goes into the GOAT conversations.

I've been a member here for years as well.  Yet what you or I see people do on this forum has no bearing on what was experienced elsewhere.

The most common argument is the argument that the talking heads give, rings.

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1 hour ago, Revel8 said:

You don't seem to understand what the argument is in the first place.  The argument is not that more probable, questionable, etc Patriots players played than other teams since 2009.  Though that does seem that could be the case. 

Already showed that the rate at which the Patriots play their Probable, Questionable, Doubtful players isn't more than other teams.

1 hour ago, Revel8 said:

The argument is that the Patriots are different than other teams when it comes to lying on their injury reports over the past decade an a half.  They would do things like putting their key impact players...not all players...as questionable for weeks on end.  Then these key players would suddenly play one week (and typically play well) without ever being put on the injury report as probable.  These types of tactics were frequent for the Patriots, but rarely seen from other teams. 

 

Again, I've shown evidence to support my stance on the matter. At this point you are just throwing whatever you want out there because you know what you're saying takes time to disprove.

 

Give me some examples of what you are claiming. Show me anything to support what you are claiming to be so obvious to yourself, yet not obvious enough to the league or other teams to do something about it.

 

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1 hour ago, Revel8 said:

I've been a member here for years as well.  Yet what you or I see people do on this forum has no bearing on what was experienced elsewhere.

The most common argument is the argument that the talking heads give, rings.

Rings is part of it sure. But they also talk about his stats which are the best or close to the best in most categories, as well as longevity, coming up in the biggest moments, etc.

You're entire argument is based on strawman you've created.

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10 hours ago, Revel8 said:

You don't seem to understand what the argument is in the first place.  The argument is not that more probable, questionable, etc Patriots players played than other teams since 2009.  Though that does seem that could be the case. 

The argument is that the Patriots are different than other teams when it comes to lying on their injury reports over the past decade an a half.  They would do things like putting their key impact players...not all players...as questionable for weeks on end.  Then these key players would suddenly play one week (and typically play well) without ever being put on the injury report as probable.  These types of tactics were frequent for the Patriots, but rarely seen from other teams. 

This is also likely why we have former Patriots players pointing out that:

"That was just a false report. That’s just how things go [in New England]" and the Patriots misrepresenting injuries on official reports is "how they do things."

 

So you're moving the goalposts?

No they're not.  You're taking your preconceived bias and assuming they are.  

Do you have any proof of this?  As a Pats fan I only remember impact players ever being questionable if they actually ever were.  And in my memory, it more often than not they ended up either not playing that week, were purposefully limited in role/snap count, or missed time the week prior or after.

"They played well" is completely ambiguous, opinion based, and unsupported by any sort of evidence.  I can just as easily (and honestly) say that I don't ever remember ONE incident of a Patriots player being listed as questionable and playing as well as they had in prior or later weeks when healthy.  Sure Gronk might be questionable and then get 80 yards, 2 TD.  That doesn't take into account context or how he scored or how he was played.  Gronk could be obviously limited and still get 2 TDs pretty easily.

Players?  Or Aqib Talib who felt lowballed by the Patriots and replaced by Revis?  The same Talib who literally shot himself on accident.  That is not exactly the kind of credibility you want to build your entire argument on.  One single account from one single former player who felt betrayed by the team, and is by most accounts a complete moron.  

There have been LOTS of Patriots who have been unexpectedly cut or traded and left on bad terms.  Belichick more than anyone is known for being cut throat with cuts/trades.  Lots of players have all the reason in the world to hate Bill and the Patriots who were former players.  Besides Aqib Talib, leg shooting sniper, where are the accounts of players like you say there are?

EDIT:

And just another thing for the whole general "Patriots cheat" bit.  I've heard nothing but how Belichick is borderline maniacal about making sure no funny business goes on and has gone over the top since 2007 because he didn't want any small nonsense to blow up in his face again.  He doesn't even let players gamble on flights anymore playing cards which is common practice for every sports team in America.

Edited by tonyto36

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Good defense in playoff will take away the big plays.

So it is about how good a QB can be when his favorite plays are taken away.

Obviously, Brady is the best ever in this situation, therefore he is the main reason that Pats could make SB 7 times and won 5 of them.

If Rodgers or Peyton or any QB cold have done the same in such situations, they would have won lot of SB.

There are two kinds of greatness:

greatness when a QB can do what he loves to do.

greatNess when a QB can't do what he loves to do.

The first one is what regular season MVP for.

The second one gives QB the ultimate success. As QB can't do what he loved to do in such situation, there will be no plays that wow you. but it is damn hard to score like 24 or more in such situations.

Edited by ztoa

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16 minutes ago, ztoa said:

Good defense in playoff will take away the big plays.

So it is about how good a QB can be when his favorite plays are taken away.

Obviously, Brady is the best ever in this situation, therefore he is the main reason that Pats could make SB 7 times and won 5 of them.

If Rodgers or Peyton or any QB cold have done the same in such situations, they would have won lot of SB.

There are two kinds of greatness:

greatness when a QB can do what he loves to do.

greatNess when a QB can't do what he loves to do.

The first one is what regular season MVP for.

The second one gives QB the ultimate success. As QB can't do what he loved to do in such situation, there will be no plays that wow you. but it is damn hard to score like 24 or more in such situations.

...ok.

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13 hours ago, Revel8 said:

I've been a member here for years as well.  Yet what you or I see people do on this forum has no bearing on what was experienced elsewhere.

The most common argument is the argument that the talking heads give, rings.

Top 4 in bulk stats and will move up 

Top  3 in efficiency stats. 

Thats the best combination of rankings in bulk and efficiency stats. 

Only guy that high in both. Only unanimous MVP. One of a handful of multi time MVP winners. Will blowout the record for most regular season wins. One of 2 players to break 50 TD's in a season. Multiple time league leader in yards and touchdowns (both categories, one of only s handful to do that). Crushes everyone in playoff wins and stat records. 

 

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3 hours ago, ztoa said:

Good defense in playoff will take away the big plays.

So it is about how good a QB can be when his favorite plays are taken away.

Obviously, Brady is the best ever in this situation, therefore he is the main reason that Pats could make SB 7 times and won 5 of them.

If Rodgers or Peyton or any QB cold have done the same in such situations, they would have won lot of SB.

There are two kinds of greatness:

greatness when a QB can do what he loves to do.

greatNess when a QB can't do what he loves to do.

The first one is what regular season MVP for.

The second one gives QB the ultimate success. As QB can't do what he loved to do in such situation, there will be no plays that wow you. but it is damn hard to score like 24 or more in such situations.

giphy.gif

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2 hours ago, JustAnotherFan said:

giphy.gif

Look, "carry the team" QB have routinely failed in playoff since Dan Marino time. They needed everything : great WR, great RB, great O-line, great D (at least play like top defense in playoff), plus, they needed the best luck a QB can expect : against a lousy QB in SB.

That is how they won SB, but their fans never stop pulling same excuse "Dan Marino would have won 5 SB with Don Shula". 

So the chance that "figure out" will happen is no better than Jets wins the next SB.

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16 hours ago, Pats#1 said:
Quote

Already showed that the rate at which the Patriots play their Probable, Questionable, Doubtful players isn't more than other teams.

According to those numbers, the rate at which the Patriots play their Probable and Questionable players is higher.  Though these numbers aren't even relevant to this discussion in the first place.
 

Quote

 

Again, I've shown evidence to support my stance on the matter. At this point you are just throwing whatever you want out there because you know what you're saying takes time to disprove.


 

 

I don't necessarily disagree with your stance on that matter, as it's a separate topic entirely. 

 


 

Quote

 

Give me some examples of what you are claiming. Show me anything to support what you are claiming to be so obvious to yourself, yet not obvious enough to the league or other teams to do something about it.


 

I've done this multiple times already.  Each time you ignore it.  As was said before, when you don't want to see something, you disavow all evidence.  We see this in science often.

 

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16 hours ago, Pats#1 said:

Rings is part of it sure. But they also talk about his stats which are the best or close to the best in most categories, as well as longevity, coming up in the biggest moments, etc.

You're entire argument is based on strawman you've created.

That's not the case.  The primary argument I see Patriots fans make is the rings argument.  This argument is easily debunked by even the most basic knowledge of the game of football. 

 

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20 hours ago, Revel8 said:

That's not the case.  The primary argument I see Patriots fans make is the rings argument.  This argument is easily debunked by even the most basic knowledge of the game of football. 

 

Brady is the #1 reason that Pats won 5. YOu never debunk the argument.

For example, the only way to beat Falcons was to keep their offense off the fields. With Rodgers, Pats D would have allowed 35-40 pts.

The point here is that with Brady, your team had a chance to win; with Rodgers, you team wouldn't have a chance to win even with the mistakes Falcons made.

and no way Rodgers could score 24 pts with Deion Branch, 

Edited by ztoa

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