TNF: Chiefs vs. Patriots (Opening Day!!!)

[ztoa]

2 hours ago, childofpudding said:

Agreed, and pretty much the same question re: Revel8. Not worth the time.

 

Pats had the weakest schedule in 2008 that Jets, Bills and Dolphins won 19 games against non-divisional teams, that is 4-6 more wins than average, and Matt had Moss.Meaning Pats were not even a playoff contender without Brady and Moss.

In first 4 games of 2016 :

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81 pts = 324 pts in 16 games.

1463 yds allowed = 5852 yds allowed in 16 games, worse than Packers D.

 

When Rodgers can't scramble anymore, his fans will search next hero, maybe Luck, and talk about how he does everyhting by himself.

When Brady is gone, Pats fans will realize that Pats are no longer an opponents Jets, Dolphins and Steelers fear.

Mark my words. I have gone through this for 15 years, don't mind wait for another 2-5 years.

BTW, if a guy is good at reading defense, you should see his plays change because it is impossible he faces the same defense formations, at least his plays should change from game to game.

[lancerman]

ztoa went on hiatus but he came back in rare form 

[ztoa]

5 minutes ago, lancerman said:

ztoa went on hiatus but he came back in rare form 

I enjoy talking to people who have called Brady "system" QB for years.

I realize it is pointless to explain to such people, they will come back with the same argument. So I just tell them that Rodgers wouldn't be able to win a single SB with Pats, then explain.

[Revel8]

On 9/12/2017 at 7:57 PM, ztoa said:

It is pointless to talk about what if your D allowed 30+ pts, because most times your team will lose. Not mention high flying and quick strike offense is part of reasons the defense has bad games. Just imagine what if Pats offense had played only 26.5 min like Rodgers, not 37 min, Pats would have lost last SB.

Now, what if your defense allows 17 pts? what if your defense allows 20 pts? what if your defense allows 24 pts?  can your QB score enough to win?

Packers had such chances, multiple times.  Rodgers failed to score 24 pts.

There are plenty of good defenses in the league in last 15 years. If their QB could have score 21+ pts year in year out, they would have won lot of SB.

I take Rodgers stats with a grain of salt, sorry, because he had good QBR even in lousy games, like 92 against Falcons.

 

Considering the fact that playoff offenses under Rodgers score over 2 points per game more than offenses under Brady, of course a Rodgers offense can score enough to win. 

The reason that the Packers lose more playoff games than the Patriots, despite scoring more points than the Patriots, is because they don't have near-constant top 10 scoring defenses like the Patriots do.

It has nothing to do with the quality of Rodgers' playoff play, which is quite stellar, and statistically better than Brady's.

 

Rodgers didn't have a lousey game vs the Falcons either.   He was the Packers' entire offense.  He had no running game, his offensive line got so injured that they had to put a DT in at Guard, and 3 of his top 4 WRs were so injured that they wouldn't have even been playing in the game if the Super Bowl was on the line. 

Yet Rodgers still put up 333 yards and 3 TDs.  In fact, Rodgers led his team in rushing too (again), which is something Brady isn't even capable of.  Rodgers had a good game, the Packers D on the other hand didn't, giving up 44 points.  You know, more points than Brady's playoff defenses have ever given up in his entire career.

In fact, if you go to ESPN's website regarding that game, the first video analysis you'll see is titled "Injuries finally caught up to the Packers".  Perhaps there's a reason for that.

[Revel8]

23 hours ago, Pats#1 said:

So are the teams that have higher percentages than the Patriots also cheaters?

 

No.  As those numbers don't necessarily show the Patriots cheating in the first place.  As was already pointed out to you.

 

23 hours ago, Pats#1 said:

How are these numbers not relevant, because they don't support your claim in which you've listed zero evidence to support.

 

They're not relevant because they have almost nothing to do with what I pointed out.

 

23 hours ago, Pats#1 said:

 

CLAIM: The Patriots have cheated on the IR much more than any other team over the past 15 years and there is demonstrative proof that shows this.

 

No wonder you're confused.  You're missing the fact that these cheats are in specific areas, which I've already pointed out multiple times.

 

23 hours ago, Pats#1 said:

EVIDENCE: Single off-season where disgruntled ex players say the Patriots have their way of doing the IR. One which said he was in fact injured, they just said it was a hip and not hamstring. And the other saying he was put on IR as punishment.

 

No what these former Patriots players pointed out is that the Patriots have a different way of conducting their injury reports than other teams.  Which is part of what I pointed out originally.

 

23 hours ago, Pats#1 said:

Again, you made a claim of cheating that spans 15 years, and haven't given any actual evidence that shows it.

 

The worst of it was over 10 years ago before the rest of the league wised up to it.  We can see this injury report cheating not only with the admissions of former Patriots players, but also how Brady was on the injury report for 3 straight seasons.  They did this for a lot of their impact players.  For example, an impact player would be listed as straight questionable for many weeks, then suddenly play.  He wouldn't be ruled out, he wouldn't be doubtful, he wouldn't be probable, he would be questionable for weeks, then suddenly play.  It made looking at Patriots injury reports irrelevant as nothing could be strategically gained by looking at one.

23 hours ago, Pats#1 said:

 

 

23 hours ago, Pats#1 said:

 

But like I said, lets go ahead and agree they did that. That is a single off-season, one that was investigated and no fines or warning handed down. One in which other teams have been caught and fined/warned about IR violations.

For the final time....If their cheating is overwhelmingly obvious to you, why has not a single infraction been found by the league pertaining to the Patriots and the IR.

 

It's not just obvious to me, we've already had 2 posters say that they thought it was common knowledge already.

As was pointed out before, everyone knows the Steelers lied on their injury report last year regarding Bell and his groin injury.  The NFL didn't even give them a warning. 

The NFL is not some bastion of integrity that likes to punish wrongdoing.  They have no incentive to punish these infractions, as it hurts their brand...until the public pressure gets to them and forces them to change.

In fact, it was known for years that Spygate was going on, as other teams complained about it, and the NFL still did nothing.  Then when they finally did something about it, it was too late, as they had already won Super Bowls and destroyed the evidence afterwards.  But that's a part of what makes Belichick so great, he does everything to win, including things against the rules.  He's smart enough to know what he can get away with, and smart enough to know that risking a draft pick in exchange for a Super Bowl win or two is well worth the risk.

To those who pay attention and value the integrity of the game, these things do not go unnoticed.

 

[Ragnarok]

On 9/12/2017 at 0:54 PM, ztoa said:

Good defense in playoff will take away the big plays.

So it is about how good a QB can be when his favorite plays are taken away.

Obviously, Brady is the best ever in this situation, therefore he is the main reason that Pats could make SB 7 times and won 5 of them.

If Rodgers or Peyton or any QB cold have done the same in such situations, they would have won lot of SB.

There are two kinds of greatness:

greatness when a QB can do what he loves to do.

greatNess when a QB can't do what he loves to do.

The first one is what regular season MVP for.

The second one gives QB the ultimate success. As QB can't do what he loved to do in such situation, there will be no plays that wow you. but it is damn hard to score like 24 or more in such situations.

[ztoa]

@Revel, imagine a boxer faced Mike Tyson.

If the boxer was a middle weight boxer, Tyson would be the most formidable opponent. Tyson might knocked him out within 30 seconds, (the stats you talk about).

Now if the boxer was also a heavy weight boxer, between Tyson and Ali, who would be more formidable?

Aaron Rodgers is like Mike Tyson. When a boxer couldn't defend Tyson's right hook, he would have no chance. But if a boxer was strong enough and skillful enough that he can defend good, Tyson will have little chance to win.

The skills proved by your stats means little against good defense in playoff.

 

[Ragnarok]

7 minutes ago, ztoa said:

@Revel, imagine a boxer faced Mike Tyson.

If the boxer was a middle weight boxer, Tyson would be the most formidable opponent. Tyson might knocked him out within 30 seconds, (the stats you talk about).

Now if the boxer was also a heavy weight boxer, between Tyson and Ali, who would be more formidable?

Aaron Rodgers is like Mike Tyson. When a boxer couldn't defend Tyson's right hook, he would have no chance. But if a boxer was strong enough and skillful enough that he can defend good, Tyson will have little chance to win.

The skills proved by your stats means little against good defense in playoff.

 

[ztoa]

3 minutes ago, Ragnarok said:

Did you figure it out yet?

Just ask yourself what happened to Peyton.

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if his skills were meaningful against good defense, he wouldn't have struggled so much against good defense in playoff.

Don't know if the logic in it is too hard for you or not.

[Ragnarok]

Just now, ztoa said:

Did you figure it out yet?

Just ask yourself what happened to Peyton.

Don't know if the logic in it is too hard for you or not.

[Revel8]

22 hours ago, Pats#1 said:

Rodgers has played in half the playoff games Brady has...Brady also played 6 playoff games (1/3 of Rodgers total), before the rule changes that saw passing statistics rise throughout the league. Both of these factors are significant when talking about averages.

Brady has also faced better playoff defenses on average when you look at DVOA (which is better than PPG). Brady - 10.8   /   Rodgers - 12.9

Rodgers is a fantastic QB, but you've been doing the same exact thing you're accusing (and rightly so) of ZTOA doing, downplaying one QB and/or propping up another.

The Brady relying on a good OL statement shows you don't watch many Patriots games. He has made his OL look much better than they actually are several seasons.

 

I agree with you that passing has gotten easier recently. 

That being said, even when we factor in all playoff games played at the same time, from 2009 onward, not much changes:

Playoff Stat—–Rodgers—Brady
QB Rating———–99.4——–89.8
Completion %-—63.5%——62.8%
PPG———---——28.75———28.0
YPA—————---—7.5———–7.0
TD %————---—-6.0%——–5.0%
INT %———---——1.7%——–2.6%

 

I completely agree that Brady makes his OLine look better than it actually is, but he still needs a better OLine to operate effectively than Rodgers does, which Belichick has provided on average.  Without it, he gets rattled and starts making more errant passes than normal.

To clarify, what I disagree with you on is that Brady is being downplayed.  He rightfully deserves to be viewed as among the all-time greats.  Yet I'm not seeing the evidence required to paint him as the greatest QB of all time.  What I'm seeing is recency bias paired with a fundamental misunderstanding of how the game of football works. 

[Revel8]

44 minutes ago, ztoa said:

@Revel, imagine a boxer faced Mike Tyson.

If the boxer was a middle weight boxer, Tyson would be the most formidable opponent. Tyson might knocked him out within 30 seconds, (the stats you talk about).

Now if the boxer was also a heavy weight boxer, between Tyson and Ali, who would be more formidable?

Aaron Rodgers is like Mike Tyson. When a boxer couldn't defend Tyson's right hook, he would have no chance. But if a boxer was strong enough and skillful enough that he can defend good, Tyson will have little chance to win.

The skills proved by your stats means little against good defense in playoff.

 

We don't need to venture into the realm of imagination, let along another sport, to talk football.

[ztoa]

7 hours ago, Revel8 said:

 

I completely agree that Brady makes his OLine look better than it actually is, but he still needs a better OLine to operate effectively than Rodgers does, which Belichick has provided on average.  Without it, he gets rattled and starts making more errant passes than normal.

You mean the line that can't hold 3 seconds?

Are you asking if Brady is GOD? No, he is not.

With Rodgers line, Brady could have won with WR from streets. because opponents have to drop 7 to 8 to cover, and Brady still gets rid of balls faster than Rodgers.

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We don't need to venture into the realm of imagination, let along another sport, to talk football.

Exactly, like "Marino could have won 5 SB with Don Shula", like a your favorite QB can do anything because of superior stats.

Yes, Rodgers is better than Brady on "I will do what I love to do, regardless". You think that way is better, be my guest. Rodgers will never be able to play like Peyton and brady, because he is average at reading defense.

If a QB is good at reading defense, he should be able to make his 2nd and third WR better sometimes, you should see some changes of his plays. You are not saying that opponents put on same defensive scheme all the time, are you?

BTW, Pats offense is too complicated for Rodgers, OK? don't question why, because that sounds like you believe  all other coaches and QB are morons.

[ztoa]

You just check what Brady did in 2002 and 2005, Without running games, with bad defense, with WR from streets, Brady's offense scored like 380 pts, OK?

Rodgers scored 368 in 2015    beause loss of Jordy Nelson, you put Rodgers in 2002 and 2005 Pats, he won't win even 7 games.

Understand who carried the team now? you want to imagine? imagine Rodgers  in 2015 without Jordy and without great O-line.

Your stats? when Brady played high flying offense, his offense scored lot more than Rodgers, OK?

Then he switched back to his old system in 2014, his offense consistently score 450, much better than Rodgers offense. OK?

Dont imagine excuses, that wil be like Rodgers doesn't want #1 or #2 seed.

Let me say it directly :

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Rodgers doesn't force the balls out of pockets, unless the pass is safe, even when he has to score.

Plus his big WR Packers GM bought for him. Get a clue why he always had good QBR, even in lousy games?

[bucsfan333]

Holy crap.