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Texans trade DE Jadeveon Clowney to Seattle for Barkevious Mingo


Steelersfan43

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21 minutes ago, evilpimp972 said:

Nah he is our best defensive player. Wagner is having a down year and the whole defense cant pressure the qb tbf

I tried to convince myself this was the case with Clowney...

...until I saw Whitney Mercilius in the middle of a career year at Clowney's edge position. He's doing everything Clowney did, but he's got numbers to back it up, too. 

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4 hours ago, AlexGreen#20 said:

FWIW Pro Footbal Reference has him at 13 total pressures which is comfortably in the second tier of pass rushers and probably a good indicator that the sack production will be coming. 

This has always been the deal with Clowney. Been waiting on that sack production for 6 years now. 

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1 hour ago, AlexGreen#20 said:

Not like the pressures and the QB hits are themselves worthless

Oh I agree. He has always been a disruptive player in the backfield. Just don't get your hopes up that it will pan into sacks. For some reason he can't quite put it all together. 

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11 hours ago, Jaytrajik said:

Oh I agree. He has always been a disruptive player in the backfield. Just don't get your hopes up that it will pan into sacks. For some reason he can't quite put it all together. 

Sacks are the most overrated stat in sports. Give me the disruptive DE that forces the QB into quick throws,  missed 3rd down, punts and  potential TO all day long.

Now would it be nice to have both like a Mack, Miller , Donald, Watt ect sure but those Pressures are just as important as accumulating 1 sack a GM on average over a season.

How many DE's like Vic Beasley , Jason Babin, Bryce Paup, Elvis Dumerville, Ansah, ect put up a monster season 15+ Sacks only to disappear like a Thief in the night there after?

It's like Brandon Graham as a Eagle. Rarely in dbl digits with sacks but almost always in the top 10 in QB pressures. The problem with that stat is they don't quantify or list what actually occured during that pressure? Was it a catch, 1st down, arrant pass, dropped, thrown away, non 3rd down converstion, FB, INT?? 

Is Clowney the Player everyone assumed he'd be when drafted, of course not. However when healthy his impact on opposing offenses is felt whether it shows up in the Box Scores or not!

Edited by Nabbs4u
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1 hour ago, Nabbs4u said:

Sacks are the most overrated stat in sports. Give me the disruptive DE that forces the QB into quick throws,  missed 3rd down, punts and  potential TO all day long.

Now would it be nice to have both like a Mack, Miller , Donald, Watt ect sure but those Pressures are just as important as accumulating 1 sack a GM on average over a season.

How many DE's like Vic Beasley , Jason Babin, Bryce Paup, Elvis Dumerville, Ansah, ect put up a monster season 15+ Sacks only to disappear like a Thief in the night there after?

It's like Brandon Graham as a Eagle. Rarely in dbl digits with sacks but almost always in the top 10 in QB pressures. The problem with that stat is they don't quantify or list what actually occured during that pressure? Was it a catch, 1st down, arrant pass, dropped, thrown away, non 3rd down converstion, FB, INT?? 

Is Clowney the Player everyone assumed he'd be when drafted, of course not. However when healthy his impact on opposing offenses is felt whether it shows up in the Box Scores or not!

This is not true. Sacks have an extremely high correlation to a team going 3 and out. They are essentially turnovers with the way they kill drives. Conversely you can pressure QBs all day but that doesn't mean passes still aren't being completed.

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3 hours ago, Nabbs4u said:

Sacks are the most overrated stat in sports. Give me the disruptive DE that forces the QB into quick throws,  missed 3rd down, punts and  potential TO all day long.

Now would it be nice to have both like a Mack, Miller , Donald, Watt ect sure but those Pressures are just as important as accumulating 1 sack a GM on average over a season.

How many DE's like Vic Beasley , Jason Babin, Bryce Paup, Elvis Dumerville, Ansah, ect put up a monster season 15+ Sacks only to disappear like a Thief in the night there after?

It's like Brandon Graham as a Eagle. Rarely in dbl digits with sacks but almost always in the top 10 in QB pressures. The problem with that stat is they don't quantify or list what actually occured during that pressure? Was it a catch, 1st down, arrant pass, dropped, thrown away, non 3rd down converstion, FB, INT?? 

Is Clowney the Player everyone assumed he'd be when drafted, of course not. However when healthy his impact on opposing offenses is felt whether it shows up in the Box Scores or not!

 

2 hours ago, Malik said:

This is not true. Sacks have an extremely high correlation to a team going 3 and out. They are essentially turnovers with the way they kill drives. Conversely you can pressure QBs all day but that doesn't mean passes still aren't being completed.

A case where both statements are true.  It’s just the context that matters.  
 

From a team and game perspective sacks are huge.  They correlate better to ending a drive, other than an outright TO.  A crucial play for sure.  
 

But for individual players sack totals on a season long basis are subject to huge variance.   Playing a turnstile T (ATL DL Adrian Clayborn vs. Chaz Green for 5 of his 6 sacks vs. DAL).   Great coverage (6 of Bradley Chubb’s 13 sacks in 2018 were clean up / coverage where he didn’t beat his guy or was simply left uncovered).   Being double vs. single-teamed.   And yes the type of QB faced (guys like Carr who will get rid of ball to avoid sacks at all costs vs. statues who take the hits).   It’s why sacks+pressures correlate better over a longer period of time for individuals.  

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, Malik said:

This is not true. Sacks have an extremely high correlation to a team going 3 and out. They are essentially turnovers with the way they kill drives. Conversely you can pressure QBs all day but that doesn't mean passes still aren't being completed.

We are talking about "Individual players" not as a Team right? At least that's what I'm talking about. You have your 1 sack a game by a DE/OLB and I'll take my chances with 4-5 pressures to that sack leading to an incompletion, TO or Punt as well.

With as much sabermetrics as there is out there you'd think someone by now would have developed a way to track said Pressures and how it effected that particular play/drive? 

2017 Top Players with QB Pressure. Cox only had 5 1/2 sacks and BG 9 1/2 yet if you asked anyone during that SB run our Dline (especially those two) was creating Havoc. Just because a sack is measuable, easily identifiable doesnt mean those Pressures didnt and don't have similar impacts.

 

Aaron Donald 106 914 11.6%
Fletcher Cox 95 830 11.4%
Dee Ford 78 1022 7.6%
JJ Watt 75 963 7.8%
Jerry Hughes 74 668 11.1%
Chris Jones 73 773 9.4%
Brandon Graham 70 754 9.3%
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Saw somewhere Clowney is the most double teamed edge in the NFL.

Something else to remember is Clowney is not playing edge, but the 5 Tech Red Bryant & Michael Bennett played for years. That being said, MB did put up double digit sack seasons from that position. 

With Reed back, hopefully this opens more opportunities for Clowney, and hopefully he can close the deal more often. 

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Clowney was pretty much non existent in terms of pass rush on Sunday, but his run defense was noticeable and he made Ronnie Stanley look like a fool on one play where he stuffed a run up the middle.

Other than that we were pretty creative in how we blocked him (on one play we just let him come through untouched and then pulled a guy from the opposite side to stand in front of him while Lamar rolled out). But he definitely doesn't look like a superstar on the field, that's for sure.

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