Chasing Great: Week 1, On to GB

[Superman(DH23)]

11 hours ago, JustAnotherFan said:

What it will take for Mitch to prove he is a franchise QB is to improve in these 3 areas where he was less than impressive last season and to prove he can do it outside of the script plays when defensive adjustments are made.

1) Consistency in ball placement.

2) Consistency in his decision making. 

3) Better accuracy in all phases-- including obvious passing situations and against the blitz. And no, he was not very accurate when you really break down pass and compare it to the rest of the league.

4) Needs to learn to go through his progressions better and trust his instincts more instead of only relying on the play design. He had a good OL last year that offered ample protection for him but he was still getting the ball out faster than he needed too. He relied on his hot read far too often last year and this often led to either an inaccurate pass or getting baited into a throw that was either tipped or picked off. Getting jittery in the pocket also caused him to read through his progressions too fast at times too.

5) Ease off on the low percentage throws. Yes, he can fit the ball into those throws into tight windows but there are usually better options elsewhere on the field. Those 20+ yard bombs downfield outside the numbers are one of the lowest percentage throws a QB can make as not only does it take precise timing and accuracy, it's also easy for the secondary to use the sidelines as an extra defender on those throws and Mitch had 50 attempts in this area last year (t-5th most in the league). Not saying get away from it completely but that number needs to come down a bit.

That said, from the decision making and precise ball placement to Miller in the end zone (it was gonna be a score or incomplete to live another down) to the perfectly placed back-shoulder throw to Robinson (leading him away from the defender and using his own momentum against him) to showing patience in the Eagles......are all good examples of why he showed flashes of greatness in all of these areas last season at times. They just didn't happen at a consistently high enough rate.

The first 4 things mentioned here are traits of what all true franchise QB's have the ability to do at consistent rate. And in order for the Bears to make a run at a title, Mitch needs to be above average in these categories.

First of all welcome back JAF :applause:

He has already proven he succeeds after the script is run out.  Yes at the beginning of the year the offense and Mitch stymied after the first 15, but by the end of the year (including against the eagles) he played his best football in the 4th qtr.  Brett Kollmans breakdown really showcased this.  He was phenomenal in pressure moments with the game on the line. If anything it was the earlier stages of the game where he had issues.  It really seemed like if he didnt have time to think about it, and just went out and played football he was terrific (stone cold killer as Kollman stated) but when he was thinking too much was when the mistakes came and the mechanics broke down.  That's what really has me excited for this year.  By all accounts Tru knows exactly what hes doing in this offense and now gets to focus on the next level and just play ball.

[beardown3231]

15 hours ago, JustAnotherFan said:

Yeah, there is no way you can call Mariota horrible or the 25th worst QB in the league -- that's just a bad take all around. No QB in the league has done more with less than he has. Having the worst recieving corps in the league while playing with a slew of injuries will make any QB look bad. And losing Delanie Walker to injury only made things worse by ten fold. 

Using team wins is a poor way of judging a QB. What part of his game makes you think he's a horrible QB? If you go back and break down each of his throws you will see how he is quickly becoming one, if not, the most disrespected QB's in the league. 

 

15 hours ago, Heinz D. said:

I...don't know where I'd rank him, as I haven't bothered to think about it. But, even if I agree he's the 25th best quarterback in football, how on earth does that make him horrible?

There are for sure 3 starting QB's I'd take Mariota over for sure- Keenum, Jackson and Fitzpatrick. I suppose Winston, Murray, Dalton, Flacco and Manning are toss-ups, although for one game to win I'd take Manning and Dalton. We can discuss his WR's all we want, but consistently he's had a really good run game at his disposal and a damn good OL. Unfortunately I don't have time to watch all of his throws but I've probably watched 4 or 5 Tennessee games over the last 2 years and I'm not sure if it was the scheme or the injuries (I think he's had two elbow issues now) but he doesn't look to have anything anymore after a decent first two years.

Agree to disagree. I think he stinks.

Edited August 31, 2019 by beardown3231

[dll2000]

15 hours ago, Heinz D. said:

How is Mariota horrible? I mean--really? 

Pretty horrible. Maybe he was hurt, but go back and watch last season.

The emergence of Henry kept them from being a complete joke last year. 

[Heinz D.]

23 minutes ago, dll2000 said:

Pretty horrible. Maybe he was hurt, but go back and watch last season.

The emergence of Henry kept them from being a complete joke last year. 

I'll freely admit he didn't have the best season last year. Don't think he's horrible but is clearly a disappointment, overall.

[JAF-N72EX]

19 hours ago, Superman(DH23) said:

First of all welcome back JAF :applause:

He has already proven he succeeds after the script is run out.  Yes at the beginning of the year the offense and Mitch stymied after the first 15, but by the end of the year (including against the eagles) he played his best football in the 4th qtr.  Brett Kollmans breakdown really showcased this.  He was phenomenal in pressure moments with the game on the line. If anything it was the earlier stages of the game where he had issues.  It really seemed like if he didnt have time to think about it, and just went out and played football he was terrific (stone cold killer as Kollman stated) but when he was thinking too much was when the mistakes came and the mechanics broke down.  That's what really has me excited for this year.  By all accounts Tru knows exactly what hes doing in this offense and now gets to focus on the next level and just play ball.

Thanks. It's been a long summer.

To be clear I never said he has not succeeded outside of the script plays. Only that he needs to improve in the areas I mentioned and be more consistent in doing so. 

I had never watched Kollman's breakdown until earlier so thank you for that. It looks like he saw the exact same thing that I saw in Trubisky for the most part. The only difference is, I also watched every other QB as well and compared them to each other just to get a better perspective. 

If I were told to breakdown Mitch's 2018 season with a short summary, it would sound like this. His bad moments were very ugly. But his good moments were not only good but GREAT -- and I don't throw that out loosely either.

Edited September 1, 2019 by JustAnotherFan

[JAF-N72EX]

16 hours ago, dll2000 said:

Pretty horrible. Maybe he was hurt, but go back and watch last season.

I don't wanna get into a long debate about Mariota in this thread/sub-forum but I did go back and watch last season and I have seen every throw he had made. Since I couldn't get an answer out beardown3231, I'll ask you the same question. What particular parts of his game did you see that make you think he was "horrible"? 

16 hours ago, dll2000 said:

The emergence of Henry kept them from being a complete joke last year. 

Using the run game (Henry) in this instance as a scape goat is essentially-- and maybe inadvertently-- penalizing a QB for not only the RB doing their job but most importantly the offensive system they happen to play in. Do you apply this same logic to other QB's like Goff for example?

Lefleur's offensive scheme (which is derived from the same system that both Shanahan and McVay currently use) contain a very heavy dose of plays run from under center while utilizing the play-action out of these formations with various different alignments to keep defenses honest. 

You need to have a good enough run game that defenses have to respect in order to open up the pass. But in order for the pass game to work, you also need key players at the other skill positions (mainly a #1 receiver who can be counted on) and Lefleur/Mariota have not had this to lean on. 

In 2019, the league average of total plays run from under-center was 37% (GL situations included)
Lefleur (TEN) ran 47% of his plays from under center---6th most in the league
McVay (LAR) ran 62% of his plays from under center---1st most in the league
Shanahan (SF) ran 55% of his plays from under center---2nd most in the league

^^ So naturally, of course, because of the system, Henry is going to see alot of action and he did his job well -- albeit limited when you take away his garbage time stats--because that's what Lefleur's offensive system was predicated on and built around due to the limitations at all of the other key positions. Which Mariota has made them look better than they were, mind you. Mariota did not fit Leleur's system but still made the most out of it.  

Go back and watch how often he made plays that he extended in the pocket when he should've been sacked and still made a play that should not have even been there to make in the first place. Go back and look at the accuracy and ball placement he displayed even when his receivers failed to create separation--which was often. Go back and watch how much better he was passing the ball when he lined up in shotgun formations and was able to use his vision to see the field better.

Mariota was better last year than most are willing to admit, imo. But I can understand it a little because not many people are gonna jump up and watch a Titans game so they base their opinions on social media and raw stats. (not saying you're doing this Dll, just in general is all.)

----------

Unrelated note about Mariota: This is why it's mind boggling as to why Lefleur chose GB in the first place. Sure, they have the skill position players to succeed in a system like his, but Rodgers is more accustomed to playing from the shotgun formation where he can better utilize his (old)legs to extend plays. Unless Lefleur has decided to change his whole scheme.

Edited September 1, 2019 by JustAnotherFan

[dll2000]

4 hours ago, JustAnotherFan said:

I don't wanna get into a long debate about Mariota in this thread/sub-forum but I did go back and watch last season and I have seen every throw he had made. Since I couldn't get an answer out beardown3231, I'll ask you the same question. What particular parts of his game did you see that make you think he was "horrible"? 

Using the run game (Henry) in this instance as a scape goat is essentially-- and maybe inadvertently-- penalizing a QB for not only the RB doing their job but most importantly the offensive system they happen to play in. Do you apply this same logic to other QB's like Goff for example?

Lefleur's offensive scheme (which is derived from the same system that both Shanahan and McVay currently use) contain a very heavy dose of plays run from under center while utilizing the play-action out of these formations with various different alignments to keep defenses honest. 

You need to have a good enough run game that defenses have to respect in order to open up the pass. But in order for the pass game to work, you also need key players at the other skill positions (mainly a #1 receiver who can be counted on) and Lefleur/Mariota have not had this to lean on. 

In 2019, the league average of total plays run from under-center was 37% (GL situations included)
Lefleur (TEN) ran 47% of his plays from under center---6th most in the league
McVay (LAR) ran 62% of his plays from under center---1st most in the league
Shanahan (SF) ran 55% of his plays from under center---2nd most in the league

^^ So naturally, of course, because of the system, Henry is going to see alot of action and he did his job well -- albeit limited when you take away his garbage time stats--because that's what Lefleur's offensive system was predicated on and built around due to the limitations at all of the other key positions. Which Mariota has made them look better than they were, mind you. Mariota did not fit Leleur's system but still made the most out of it.  

Go back and watch how often he made plays that he extended in the pocket when he should've been sacked and still made a play that should not have even been there to make in the first place. Go back and look at the accuracy and ball placement he displayed even when his receivers failed to create separation--which was often. Go back and watch how much better he was passing the ball when he lined up in shotgun formations and was able to use his vision to see the field better.

Mariota was better last year than most are willing to admit, imo. But I can understand it a little because not many people are gonna jump up and watch a Titans game so they base their opinions on social media and raw stats. (not saying you're doing this Dll, just in general is all.)

----------

Unrelated note about Mariota: This is why it's mind boggling as to why Lefleur chose GB in the first place. Sure, they have the skill position players to succeed in a system like his, but Rodgers is more accustomed to playing from the shotgun formation where he can better utilize his (old)legs to extend plays. Unless Lefleur has decided to change his whole scheme.

I only watched a few of his games last year and in those he wasn't good.  If he was really good in others I don't know. If he was hurt in those games I saw I don't know. 

I do know even Titans fans are not excited about him and no one is talking extension.  Speaks volumes I think.

Edited September 1, 2019 by dll2000

[beardown3231]

4 hours ago, JustAnotherFan said:

I don't wanna get into a long debate about Mariota in this thread/sub-forum but I did go back and watch last season and I have seen every throw he had made. Since I couldn't get an answer out beardown3231, I'll ask you the same question. What particular parts of his game did you see that make you think he was "horrible"? 

Using the run game (Henry) in this instance as a scape goat is essentially-- and maybe inadvertently-- penalizing a QB for not only the RB doing their job but most importantly the offensive system they happen to play in. Do you apply this same logic to other QB's like Goff for example?

Lefleur's offensive scheme (which is derived from the same system that both Shanahan and McVay currently use) contain a very heavy dose of plays run from under center while utilizing the play-action out of these formations with various different alignments to keep defenses honest. 

You need to have a good enough run game that defenses have to respect in order to open up the pass. But in order for the pass game to work, you also need key players at the other skill positions (mainly a #1 receiver who can be counted on) and Lefleur/Mariota have not had this to lean on. 

In 2019, the league average of total plays run from under-center was 37% (GL situations included)
Lefleur (TEN) ran 47% of his plays from under center---6th most in the league
McVay (LAR) ran 62% of his plays from under center---1st most in the league
Shanahan (SF) ran 55% of his plays from under center---2nd most in the league

^^ So naturally, of course, because of the system, Henry is going to see alot of action and he did his job well -- albeit limited when you take away his garbage time stats--because that's what Lefleur's offensive system was predicated on and built around due to the limitations at all of the other key positions. Which Mariota has made them look better than they were, mind you. Mariota did not fit Leleur's system but still made the most out of it.  

Go back and watch how often he made plays that he extended in the pocket when he should've been sacked and still made a play that should not have even been there to make in the first place. Go back and look at the accuracy and ball placement he displayed even when his receivers failed to create separation--which was often. Go back and watch how much better he was passing the ball when he lined up in shotgun formations and was able to use his vision to see the field better.

Mariota was better last year than most are willing to admit, imo. But I can understand it a little because not many people are gonna jump up and watch a Titans game so they base their opinions on social media and raw stats. (not saying you're doing this Dll, just in general is all.)

----------

Unrelated note about Mariota: This is why it's mind boggling as to why Lefleur chose GB in the first place. Sure, they have the skill position players to succeed in a system like his, but Rodgers is more accustomed to playing from the shotgun formation where he can better utilize his (old)legs to extend plays. Unless Lefleur has decided to change his whole scheme.

Using his feet, he seemed hesitant, scared and somewhat slow. With his arm, there seemed to be nothing on his throws. When in the pocket for a long time, his happy feet were going a million miles an hour.

Stats can sometimes be meaningless but his stats the last 2 years are borderline embarrassing. That in itself speaks volumes and like dll said, most Titans fans are ready to move on. Once again I believe there have been 2 elbow/nerve problems in his throwing arm so that could be playing a part also. To make a prediction about a guy's love for the game would be idiotic, but when I see him play he seems to not be having fun. I could envision him leaving the league, Luck style.

Mentally for me, maybe I'm trying to link his play and his draft position, but watching Mariota play is hard.

Edited September 1, 2019 by beardown3231

[beardown3231]

 

[beardown3231]

Miller is practicing but Burton is not

[dll2000]

Packers Suck!  As soon as someone make the ending into GIF I will be using it often. 

 

[dll2000]

10 minutes ago, beardown3231 said:

Miller is practicing but Burton is not

That's not good.  

[AZBearsFan]

5 hours ago, dll2000 said:

That's not good.  

Seems as though we may get to test my belief that Nagy can scheme for a Burton absence with our surplus at WR when given time to do so sooner than anyone would have liked. 

[beardown3231]

Here come the Burton conspiracy theories/rumors again.

It is odd that he had hernia surgery months ago and it's still not ok. Nagy said that he played in that first-of-its-kind scrimmage to simulate a preseason game, so he either lied or he had a setback.

I wonder if NYG would part with Engram.

Edited September 2, 2019 by beardown3231

[Sugashane]

 

5 hours ago, dll2000 said:

Packers Suck!  As soon as someone make the ending into GIF I will be using it often. 

 

Damn it you beat me to it.  Lmao. "Lesser Peyton" is awesome. 

Edited September 2, 2019 by Sugashane