College Football and NFL Draft Discussion

[candyman93]

1 hour ago, MSURacerDT55 said:

- If Meckhi Becton comes in at a good looking 345, he is going to skyrocket after the combine 

- I really, really like Alohi Gilman, wheneverI watched ND, he always made big instinctual plays and has loads of leadership 

- Like it or not (I love it) Javon Kinlaw will be an option at 10

It’s because Kinlaw is a beast.

[candyman93]

In a perfect world, our new GM makes signings and trades that fix our OT spots. Then uses the entire draft on defense.

[bruceb]

3 minutes ago, candyman93 said:

In a perfect world, our new GM makes signings and trades that fix our OT spots. Then uses the entire draft on defense.

I would be ok with that.

[Mind Character]

3 hours ago, NudeTayne said:

Would put us taking a WR in round one as a 1% chance, for all the reasons you and others have listed, even though Raegor would be solid value there and should be a top deep threat, but wilder things have happened. The real question is, do you believe he is Tyreke Hill-talented? If he is prime Desean Jackson, that would still be disappointing ITO for who we already have at WR, the crazy-deep talent pool there, our needs on both lines--offensive being priority for all need positions--and also for the fact that we had pick 10 to start.

And you have your zone blocking list put together and all, but even if we run zone most of the time, is it really worth passing on both Wirf's and Bekton? Bekton is absolutely gigantic and moves well. You don't think he could work at right tackle in a ZBS? And you have him going a pick later. You don't think Wirfs would be any better than the guys you have in the second round?

It looks like we would be taking some big risks by waiting til the middle of the second round and having both of our guys there. What if another zone blocking team loves them and one or both are gone before our two picks in the second? Runs on offensive linemen are pretty common.

Overall the draft looks nice if this is how it went. It'd be nice to get that 2021 first rounder somehow but maybe won't happen this year.

1.) I think we remember prime Desean Jackson much differently, but even still the comparison I have for Reagor is Tyler Lockett of the Seattle Seahawks except faster, twitchier, and with better athletic ability to high point the ball (when the ball is thrown his way. I think once he gets to the pros he's going to give everything that Lockett does.

Will OBJ and Jarvis be here 2 years from now? What will their play quality be like? To me, I'm against taking a WR early unless as it was in this case we're able to address our OLine needs first and/or receive trade down value before the WR selection.We agree over the WR position depth and why it would on its face disregard holistic draft value to take a WR in the 1st. In this scenario, given the birds-eye view of what's accomplished as the overall strategy value is just too good to pass on.

2.) We all agree that OT and OLIne are our #1 needs, but what I'm proposing is that based on what we'll doing primarily as an offense Jack Driscoll and Robert Hunt are better prospects than Mekhi Becton and others rated lower than them on my ZBS OT rankings. Therefore, trading down then selecting them both would not be overlooking a priority need, but instead targeting that need with particular players while at the same time maximizing the value of a trade down that allows the acquisition of future present and future draft capital.

Therefore, I don't see the trade down and passing up of players like Wirfs and Becton as missing out on something per se. I'm back on the Wirfs is only a Guard and not a Tackle train. Even at ZBS Tackle, I now see Driscoll and Hunt as better Tackle prospects even though I still see Wirfs as special player.

With Becton, unlike others I never saw him as worthy of a top 10 pick and have discussed why in other posts. He's a great, eye-popping prospect who certainly worth a top 40 if not top 25 selection. I have no doubt that he can be a solid ZBS Tackle, but ZBS is so much about moving well in one direction (Becton can do this), but about the ability to initially move horizontally down the line with quickness, agility and power toward a blocking landmark then suddenly flip one's hips a different or opposite direction to wall off a defender or defender(s) at the 1st or second level (Becton is not proficient in this skill). There are various other ZBS skills that he's not as good as Driscoll and Hunt at imo some of which have to do with his recognition and processing ability while on the move. He's a great man-blocking prospect with high high upside just not the desirable ZBS player.

3.) It's all about Jedrick Wills Jr. and then Andrew Thomas. For what we need and the quality of player available, Wills steals the show. He's already a pro-bowl caliber amazing as a power forward blocker and lockdown pass protector, but his abilities and play traits translate to super star level as a ZBS Tackle. If he's there you take him and never worry about trading down. Andrew Thomas as well although I'm not as high and he needs a lot of development (he has the tools though).

4.) We would be taking some risks by waiting for our guys to get to the 1st third of the 2nd round, but that's why I specified a trade up if necessary. In this scenario, we certainly acquired some extra draft capital to do so without too much of a cost. I do think it's realistic that Driscoll and Hunt both make it to those picks as their will be other standard scheme Tackles available (at least in this scenario) that teams will likely covet over Driscoll and Hunt during the customary run of 5 OLineman at the top of round 2.

I think the run in round 2 is likely going to be guard and center centric with players like Solomon Kindley, Shane Lemieux, and Tyler Biadasz coming off the board quickly. Prince Tega-Wanogho, Josh Jones, and Isaiah Wilson will be the Tackles that will come off the board before Hunt and Driscoll if there is a run on Tackles at the top of round 2.

 

Edited January 22, 2020 by Mind Character

[Mind Character]

2 hours ago, JDD said:

Man can we draft Tee Higgins too? If the Saints and Packers can draft him we can too

I think if that WR is the #1 player on their board go for it. Though I wouldn’t be shocked if they made that move to get to 25 they wouldn’t make another one for someone who wants Fromm in the late first for the extra year deal.

If we traded back with the Vikings I think I’d try to maximize value for this year. I wouldn’t go after 4th and 5th round picks for next year.  This gives you flexibility with the picks this year to move around in the third. 

Lol. I totally missed that.

I fixed it so now round 1 ends with New Orleans getting Laviska Shenault, WR Colorado and Kansas City selecting Yetur Gross-Matos, DE Penn State:

5 hours ago, Mind Character said:

24.) New Orleans -- Laviska Shenault, WR Colordao

25.) Browns ( Via Vikings) -- Jalen Reagor, WR TCU (WR Selection Not Ideal; Tremendous Underutilzed Pro-Bowl Talent; Value is Just too Amazing to Pass On)

26.) Dolphins (Via Texans) -- Isaiah Wilson, RT Georgia

27.) Seattle -- Bryce Hall, CB Virginia

28.) Ravens -- Jordan Elliot, DT Missouri

29.) Titans -- Julian Okwara, DE/OLB Notre Dame 

30.) Packers -- Tee Higgins, WR Clemson                                                          

31.) Kansas City -- Yetur Gross-Matos, DE Penn State

32.)  49ers -- Jauan Jennings, WR Tennessee 

Yeah, I wasn't really sure what those trade parameters should be with the VIkings trade. I pushed the value to next year just because a prior trade already accrued extra draft capital for this yea, but I definitely see your point.

 

Edited January 22, 2020 by Mind Character

[Mind Character]

2 hours ago, MSURacerDT55 said:

- If Meckhi Becton comes in at a good looking 345, he is going to skyrocket after the combine 

- I really, really like Alohi Gilman, wheneverI watched ND, he always made big instinctual plays and has loads of leadership 

- Like it or not (I love it) Javon Kinlaw will be an option at 10

So much pop off the ball. Tremendous competitive fire. Has length; has power when he plays with leverage. Unfortunately, he plays out of control and doesn't rush with a plan which puts him awkward and unbalanced positions where he gets dominated and destroyed via highlight reel OLine blocks too often for a high-level prospect.

The good news is if he's a committed worker that loves the game teaching him plans of attack and helping him control his explosiveness and berserker ability could go a long way toward making him a pro-bowl talent.

He has so much length as well but has no clue how to use it to his advantage as he rushes into bear hugs and doesn't understand how to use leverage to his advantage.

There's a difference between not having yet been taught how to master and apply one's raw talent and being taught how to but unable to apply the lessons. Assuming that Kinlaw is the former (I've assumed he is), I've discussed him as one of the central players to target in a trade down from 10.

Ultimately, I think he still goes 12 to 20 no matter how his Senior Bowl turns out. Berserker style rushes are flashy and stand out in the Senior Bowl, but the scouts that watch all his games know well that those traits get him in a lot of trouble.

I love the guy. Has all the intangibles and want to, but not the technique. Can he learn and apply it? If so, he's going to be high quality pro-bowl level impact player for many years to come.

Edited January 22, 2020 by Mind Character

[Mind Character]

On 11/13/2019 at 7:15 PM, brownplaque said:

You are missing two names that are really good football players in Matt Peart and Robert Hunt

I still don't see it with Peart due to his balance and contact balance issues, but great call on Hunt many months ago.

I've seen the light. Especially for a zone blocking scheme.

[BrownLeader]

18 hours ago, BleedTheClock said:

I’ll bet you big money he doesn’t ever play S in the NFL. 

The dude is a linebacker. Call him a “nickel corner” if you want, but he is an outside linebacker. 

Ultimately depends on who drafts him and the fit but I'd wager heavily many teams have him as a S.

7 hours ago, Mind Character said:

Browns Full Value-Maximization "My Guys" Draft:

1(25). Jalen Reagor, WR TCU

2(41). (Trade Up in the 2nd if We Must to get him) Robert Hunt, ZB-OT Louisiana-Lafayette

2(42). (Trade Up in the 2nd if We Must to get him) Jack Driscoll, ZB-RT Auburn

3. Antoine Winfield Jr., FS/SS Minnesota

3. Zach Baun, Hybrid-LB Wisconsin

4. (Trade Up Some if We Must to get him) Thaddeus Moss, TE LSU

4. (Trade Up Some if We Must to get him) Ross Blacklock, DT TCU

4. Troy Dye, Hybrid-LB Oregon // Malik Harrison, Hybrid-LB Ohio State

6. Joe Reed, WR Virginia

7. Daishawn Dixon, OG San Diego St.

7. Josiah Deguara, TE San Diego State

Need Positions not able to be filled via draft due to value maximization (DE; OG) -- Those Position Groups aren't deep in the draft which points to the need to address those needs before the draft.

Jags trading up for Herbert with Minshew in tow....eh, pretty unlikely. Herbert has better tools but struggles in all the areas Minshew excells in.

2 hours ago, candyman93 said:

It’s because Kinlaw is a beast.

Kinlaw's a better prospect than player at this point.

1 hour ago, Mind Character said:

1.) I think we remember prime Desean Jackson much differently, but even still the comparison I have for Reagor is Tyler Lockett of the Seattle Seahawks except faster, twitchier, and with better athletic ability to high point the ball (when the ball is thrown his way. I think once he gets to the pros he's going to give everything that Lockett does.

With Becton, unlike others I never saw him as worthy of a top 10 pick and have discussed why in other posts. He's a great, eye-popping prospect who certainly worth a top 40 if not top 25 selection. I have no doubt that he can be a solid ZBS Tackle, but ZBS is so much about moving well in one direction (Becton can do this), but about the ability to initially move horizontally down the line with quickness, agility and power toward a blocking landmark then suddenly flip one's hips a different or opposite direction to wall off a defender or defender(s) at the 1st or second level (Becton is not proficient in this skill). There are various other ZBS skills that he's not as good as Driscoll and Hunt at imo some of which have to do with his recognition and processing ability while on the move. He's a great man-blocking prospect with high high upside just not the desirable ZBS player.

 

I think you're greatly underestimating Lockett as a prospect. He was one of the best 50/50 guys I've ever seen at his size.

Raegor has speed but imo he was less explosive as a senior than as a junior... though I haven't looked into it yet. Good prospect but he's just one of many in this class. He reminds me of Calloway really.

Agreed on Becton. He's basically a fat Bryant McKinnie.

[MWil23]

IMO this debate right now is kind of pointless on Simmons, because he's so athletic/good that he's never coming off of the edge.

If he an SLB? ABSOLUTELY!

Is he a slot S on TE in passing situations? ABSOLUTELY!

Is he a push back 2 high box player hybrid to vary a look? ABSOLUTELY!

Is he an EDGE/ALLEY player? ABSOLUTELY!

[braylon]

I only read a little snippet of a post.. But Desean Jackson is literally one of the best deep threats in NFL history and if I knew I was getting someone of his caliber I'd happily take him in the first round. His only season in which he started all 16 games he put up 1,300 yards and 9 TDs. The impact he has on a defense is immense.

With that said, I know there are MUCH bigger needs and it's impossible to KNOW what you're getting in the draft, so please Browns, don't take a WR.

[BleedTheClock]

If we take a WR in the 1st, it had better be CeeDee Lamb or Jerry Jeudy.

I'd honestly be ok with it, as we do need a #3 WR and it would maximize everything.

#1: Beckham
#2: Jeudy/Lamb
Slot: Landry

 

We would have about 2 seconds to throw the ball, but those three would be unstoppable even in that time frame.

[LETSGOBROWNIES]

Just gimme a tackle.

Yes it’s boring, but we need boring right now.

More steak, less sizzle.

[sdrawkcab321]

8 minutes ago, LETSGOBROWNIES said:

Just gimme a tackle.

Yes it’s boring, but we need boring right now.

More steak, less sizzle.

Give me a full back 

[MSURacerDT55]

10 hours ago, Mind Character said:

So much pop off the ball. Tremendous competitive fire. Has length; has power when he plays with leverage. Unfortunately, he plays out of control and doesn't rush with a plan which puts him awkward and unbalanced positions where he gets dominated and destroyed via highlight reel OLine blocks too often for a high-level prospect.

The good news is if he's a committed worker that loves the game teaching him plans of attack and helping him control his explosiveness and berserker ability could go a long way toward making him a pro-bowl talent.

He has so much length as well but has no clue how to use it to his advantage as he rushes into bear hugs and doesn't understand how to use leverage to his advantage.

There's a difference between not having yet been taught how to master and apply one's raw talent and being taught how to but unable to apply the lessons. Assuming that Kinlaw is the former (I've assumed he is), I've discussed him as one of the central players to target in a trade down from 10.

Ultimately, I think he still goes 12 to 20 no matter how his Senior Bowl turns out. Berserker style rushes are flashy and stand out in the Senior Bowl, but the scouts that watch all his games know well that those traits get him in a lot of trouble.

I love the guy. Has all the intangibles and want to, but not the technique. Can he learn and apply it? If so, he's going to be high quality pro-bowl level impact player for many years to come.

100% agreed, but his technique isn't as bad as some guys I've seen. His length matched with his explosiveness and size doesn't come a long that often, depending on who we get as our DL coach, he could easily mirror Arik Armstead/Chris Jones type of presence in our defense, and TBH I think his combine number may even be slightly better than those two. I might just chalk his unrefinedness up to his coach letting him be free at his position, he'll get coached up at the next level.

[candyman93]

Kinda interesting how much the senior bowl has mattered to us.

 

Quote

The Senior Bowl has been a consistent source of talent for the Cleveland Browns, who have routinely drafted players that participated in the event, including the last four seasons, adding Austin Seibert, Baker Mayfield, Larry Ogunjobi and Joe Schobert.