GDT Week 1, Packers @ Bears

[SLCbear]

1 hour ago, dll2000 said:

@beardown3231
 

I have said repeatedly think the big knocks on HHCD aren't all fair.   Remember there was one play last year where ARob quit on a route and then didn't chase on interception. Literally one play, not saying it's acceptable, but he didn't repeat it.   A lot of Bears fans said they would never, ever forgive him for it.  They did, but it took probably the Philly game for a lot of them.

Well HHCD had about 4 or 5 of those plays for Packers and they cannot forgive him for it.   He just made low effort tackle on a big player coming at him or incidents like that.  Business decisions as Deion Sanders used to say.   Not a great way to earn fan love.  They were few and far between in volume of plays, but they happened.   But, everything is his fault now as that hatred doesn't die. 

Let me explain his situation.  He played single high safety on vast majority of snaps for GB and Wash. and when I say high I mean high.  He was 20+ yards deep.  4 secs into many plays he was facing 2 WRs coming at 12+ yards and open.   What do you do?   You can either take one guy and leave other wide open or split the difference and hope QB makes a bad throw.  Either way you are usually screwed as the deep safety.  There is literally no way to look good in that situation.   Eddie Jackson is better on his break than just about anybody, BUT he gets to do it at 3 secs vs. 4 AND there isn't usually two wide open receivers entering the deep zone.   That is huge.  

Then on runs and screens HHCD is coming from way deep and one on one with a WR or RB with 5-10 yards of open space between him and the runner.   You think that is easy to handle you have never played defense at any level of football.   The great Eddie Jackson struggles there too, most every does, it's hard.  

Conversely when you watch Amos, because of his role in scheme and players around him he is within arms reach of a defender every time the ball arrives.  He rarely played deep at snap.   It isn't a fair comparison in the least.  When Amos was forced into a situation where he had to make an open field play with space, just like HHCD was on the regular, he struggled.

Having said all that I think because of aggressive nature of defense there is going to be perceived 'mistakes' from all secondary, that is nature of the beast.  But they aren't really mistakes so much as you blitzed and got burned for it as somebody leaked out where a blitzed man was or a somebody got behind defense in man.  It happens.

Trying to compare two is really hard and not really apt.  Amos played near LINE OF SCRIMMAGE and HHCD played deep.  

 

 

  

 

 

 

 

 

I'm expecting a more versatile, almost positionless approach to our secondary ...Ha Ha is twice the athlete and provides so much more opportunity to scheme around each opponent

 Dix will be an overall net upgrade from AA for sure ...if he is properly motivated. He sure seems to be

 

Edited September 4, 2019 by SLCbear

[SLCbear]

6 minutes ago, Packerraymond said:

What you're hoping you get is 2016 Haha.

 The moment he was announced as a Pro Bowler that year his play slipped and never recovered.

He deserves all the criticism his past 2 years of play has gotten him, you just have to hope he's been forced to eat some humble pie and get back to what he was. I was hoping that for him (until he signed with you) because he is genuinely a good dude.

First paragraph was pretty much hate, and I get it. But how can you call him a staple on D while also stating you have no choice bit to play him deep ...

Anyways I agree 💪 about the points above and think he has been humbled and is motivated ....he will move around for us and he has seen quite a bit of Rodgers 

[soulman]

32 minutes ago, dll2000 said:

He doesn't have to blitz, he just has to threaten the blitz.  Whole point is to screw up the blocking assignments.

That being said Roquan and Floyd do need to be relatively frequent blitzers, they were made in a laboratory for blitzing.  Fangio didn't understand that enough.

 

 

 

 

 

This is key along with a previous post calling for multiple rushes and blitzes that both confuse and defeat a blocking scheme.

As I posted before I would get ready for a defense that plays more like the '85 Bears where Buddy Ryan's thinking was we're gonna put a stop watch on the QB with constant pressure but we'll be much harder to predict where it's coming from.

Mack is our Richard Dent DE and Hicks our Hampton/McMichael DT.  Smith and Floyd get to play Marshall and Wilson.

Every one knew Dent was coming just as they do Mack but try and stop him.

And everyone knew McMichael or Hampton (at DT) would be coming but with their strength and quickness few OGs could handle them.

Hicks is a 6'5"/330lb or something version of those two guys and you better double him or he's gonna penetrate.

What DCs couldn't always predict with Marshall and Wilson is who was coming.  One or Both?  That's Smith and Floyd.

Pagano has the tools to run a more aggressive front seven if he chooses because he has a very good secondary backing them with three pretty good ball hawks.  That gives him some options Fangio may have chosen not to use very often if at all.

I got a kick out of Pagano's comment that every time he blitzes Smith he gets a sack so may be should just blitz him on every 3rd and long.  That's not as absurd as it may sound.  The kid is like a heat seeking missile few QB if any can escape because he's quicker and faster than they are.  If schemed well Floyd and Smith should be able to seriously limit Rodgers ability to extend plays with his feet.

NOW.....that said all I care about is to (quoting Al Davis)  "JUST WIN BABY"......WIN BIG!

[Packerraymond]

5 minutes ago, SLCbear said:

First paragraph was pretty much hate, and I get it. But how can you call him a staple on D while also stating you have no choice bit to play him deep ...

Anyways I agree 💪 about the points above and think he has been humbled and is motivated ....he will move around for us and he has seen quite a bit of Rodgers 

Because you are forced to play him deep? His skillset requires that. Having a really good deep safety is extremely valuable. That's what Nick Collins was, that's what we hoped Haha was and why we drafted Darnell Savage. That's not a knock on Haha, you just can't say "you can't knock his mistakes because they forced him to play deep" if you guys put him in the box or in M2M, look out, that's not his game, should've signed Tre Boston then. His game is playing centerfield and he showed he was on the cusp of being elite at it in 2016. Hopefully he bombs one more year, signs a prove it deal with an AFC team and blows up like Hayward and Hyde 😉

[Leader]

29 minutes ago, SLCbear said:

I'm expecting a more versatile, almost positionless approach to our secondary..................

HHCD will certainly give you this as more often than not he's out of position, takes bad angles to the point of reception or ball carrier.

The vast majority of his INTs were bad / inaccurate throws - moreso than him breaking on the ball and attacking it / stealing it at the point of reception.

Packer fans learned the truth. Redskin fans learned the truth. Now its your turn

Edited September 4, 2019 by Leader

[beardown3231]

3 minutes ago, Leader said:

HHCD will certainly give you this as more often than not he's out of position, takes bad angles to the point of reception or ball carrier.

The vast majority of his INTs were bad / inaccurate throws - moreso than him breaking on the ball and attacking it / stealing it at the point of reception.

Packer fans learned the truth. Redskin fans learned the truth. Now its your turn

And Amos is a giant upgrade, he's a leader, he's a sure handed tackler, he's well worth the contract, blah blah blah. Trust me, we've heard it. Hit the road.

[AZBearsFan]

7 minutes ago, Leader said:

The vast majority of his INTs were bad / inaccurate throws - moreso than him breaking on the ball and attacking it / stealing it at the point of reception.

I can’t say for sure whether that’s true or not but I can say with absolute certainty that Amos has never created an interception in the NFL with his instincts in pass coverage. Not once in 4 years. He’s been opportunistic in that regard but even then only to the tune of 3 INT in 4 seasons. It is what it is, probably on both sides. 

The good news for the Bears is that if HHCD is bad Deon Bush was arguably our best DB in camp per all reports, stood out in the preseason as well, and is also playing for a contract. 

[Leader]

Just now, beardown3231 said:

And Amos is a giant upgrade, he's a leader, he's a sure handed tackler, he's well worth the contract, blah blah blah. Trust me, we've heard it. Hit the road.

Actually, you've never heard any such thing about Amos from me. I've not seen enough of him to make the statements. HHCD I saw plenty of.

Take it / respond to it as Packer/Bear fans "giving each other ****" - or just a simple comment based on observation.

Something will have to change in HHCDs approach for him NOT to perform as he has for a few years now. Can he do it? Sure. Will he? Cant say.

Your FO certainly wasnt convinced before they signed him either. One thing HHCD will give you: he'll play every week. The guys never injured - which speaks more to his lack of hitting than his physical strength or health. In any case, your FO gave a "last chance" contract to the guy.   

[BearsDen1-99]

Tic Toc

[soulman]

28 minutes ago, Packerraymond said:

You have no choice but to play Haha deep.  He's not nearly physical enough to play in the box and doesn't tackle or take angles well. In the slot we tried to use him there and he just can't cover man to man. Teams would go trips on us in the red zone to pull Haha down onto the slot guy and they'd run that guy on a post, and I swear by the time we traded him teams must've been 6/6 for 6 TDs doing that to us. He'd get beat every time. 

But remember, that's the way your DC schemed him and it may not be how Pagano does it.  His strength is as much as a secondary coach as it is a HC or DC.  There may be other options both in coverage and in run support.  I believe the assumption that HHC-D will play every snap as a SS is incorrect. 

Deon Bush showed up very well in the preseason and can cover as well as play the run.  He's more of a "banger" type SS.  Jackson can also be used in man coverage and we have other Slot CBs as well who can run and cover.

Not to be argumentative but simply to ask.  Do you really feel GB has had a good secondary for the past few years and a DC who knew how to get the best out of them?  Capers is gone and so are quite a few of the players you drafted for the secondary.  So was C-Dix surrounded by the best talent or was he left more on an island or asked to do what he did not do well?

I don't believe any knowledgeable Bears fan is expecting miracles out of HHC-D.  We're looking at his ball skills as much or more than his ability in run support. That's the function of our front seven and if we're getting run on too much Bush can replace C-Dix without any major drop in talent.  In his defense it looks like he's also added a bit of weight to better handle playing in the box when needed.

Allowing Amos to leave was primarily a money based decision.  Pace would have liked to have re-signed him but not for what GB offered him.  And has far as HHC-D he went into that deal with his eyes open. He came cheap and motivated to attract better long term offers in 2020.  If he plays well he's a bargain and if he doesn't he can be replaced even this year so the risk was low.

[malagabears]

Ruh roh, the Cheeseheads are invading. Soul man your foxhole!! 

[soulman]

17 minutes ago, Leader said:

HHCD will certainly give you this as more often than not he's out of position, takes bad angles to the point of reception or ball carrier.

The vast majority of his INTs were bad / inaccurate throws - moreso than him breaking on the ball and attacking it / stealing it at the point of reception.

Packer fans learned the truth. Redskin fans learned the truth. Now its your turn

But you're assuming he can't be replaced if he fails to live up to expectations and as I posted above that's a false assumption.

We needed vet depth to replace Amos and compete with Deon Bush.  HHC-D came cheap so he's it.

The competition seemed to light a fire under Bush whose also in his contract year.  He played well in preseason and is more than capable of stepping in as a starter should C-Dix fail in which case he becomes a dime FS Safety playing deep and playing the ball.

It's always been his ball skills Pace and Pagano were after, never his abilities as an in the box SS.

[Leader]

1 minute ago, soulman said:

But you're assuming he can't be replaced if he fails to live up to expectations and as I posted above that's a false assumption.

You must be thinking of somebody else's comment.

I dont consider HHCD "irreplaceable"

[AZBearsFan]

14 minutes ago, Leader said:

In any case, your FO gave a "last chance" contract to the guy. 

I don’t think that’s the case - they gave him what they could without compromising their ability to keep their own studs coming up for extension next offseason. 

[soulman]

5 minutes ago, malagabears said:

Ruh roh, the Cheeseheads are invading. Soul man your foxhole!! 

These guys are making solid arguments but I think they're missing the point because they don't know enough about the Bears secondary.

What was expected of HHC-D in GB and what's expected of him now may not be even close to the same.

Plus we aren't stuck if he fails to meet expectations.  If that happens Bush starts and C-Dix sits or gets used in dime packages and where we might play two deep at Safety.  Both players give us multiple options.