thebestever6 Posted September 10, 2019 Share Posted September 10, 2019 7 minutes ago, AnAngryAmerican said: And, remember this, after we wait another 10 years for Brittany Bowlen to finally take over as a real owner do you think she's going to remove Ellis, the guy who basically secured her controlling ownership of the team? Doubtful. That's my biggest fear more nepotism and complacency. Maybe she just gives him a "new," grandfathered out position. I don't know that the thought of bringing a Shanahan was wrong. We all knew that Vance was a huge head scratcher. And McDaniels as bad as he was as a coach, and as limited his draft boards were. I do believe he accelerated the rebuild. And trading jay for that haul was smart, as well as Marshall. This organization has to have a direction. Aquire assets for old talent and get the young guys work. I just don't know if the veterans from superbowl 48 and 50 are worth keeping around. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carrolljcmc Posted September 10, 2019 Share Posted September 10, 2019 8 minutes ago, AKRNA said: I look at it just a bit differently, similar but the same result. These are the drafted players that were re-signed, extended from 2011 through 2015. Nelson doesn't really count since we let him go, then got him again when no one else wanted him. Once again though, 38 picks and only 4 left on the roster, not one of them a leader. Hard to build a team that way. The survivors: 2011-Von Miller 2012- Derek Wolfe 2013- No one 2014-Corey Nelson 2015- Jeff Heuerman I wouldn't even count Heuerman. He's done (tongue in cheek) absolutely nothing since being drafted. 10 catches, 100 yards, and 1 TD a year (on average) doesn't help. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebestever6 Posted September 10, 2019 Share Posted September 10, 2019 Just now, carrolljcmc said: I wouldn't even count Heuerman. He's done (tongue in cheek) absolutely nothing since being drafted. 10 catches, 100 yards, and 1 TD a year (on average) doesn't help. He and Brock lit up the Colts in 2017 to get us out of the big 3 sweepstakes that's what I will remember him for. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MakeDenverGreatAgain Posted September 10, 2019 Share Posted September 10, 2019 26 minutes ago, AnAngryAmerican said: This. Every one wants to blame Elway for the mess we're in. And I don't think that blame is entirely misplaced. For a long time I've been an Elway defender but its been one big mistake after another. And while it's fair to blame Elway do you really want Joe Ellis, Joe freaking Ellis, making the decision on a new GM? Think about that for a minute. Woody Paige, who has real sources beyond the Broncos PR team, reported last year Ellis was a full-throated supporter of hiring McDaniels and that he didn't want a Shanahan, Mike or Kyle, back involved with the team so we hired Vance and then retained him, over Elway's objections. It was Ellis, not Elway, who didn't want to pay Wade $2 million a year to stay on as DC. Elway has made his mistakes, a lot of them and a number of them big ones, but to think firing him will cure our problems is 1000000000% wrong. And, until we go back to the playoffs and get into contention for championships again, it'll be all we hear on the radio and elsewhere. But Ellis is the problem, or at least the biggest one, and until he is removed from any and all positions of power in this franchise nothing is going to change. And, remember this, after we wait another 10 years for Brittany Bowlen to finally take over as a real owner do you think she's going to remove Ellis, the guy who basically secured her controlling ownership of the team? Doubtful. Does Ellis evaluate and draft talent? Elway has proven he can't do that, and I don't believe in the devil you know vs. devil you don't argument. Unless Elway can convince the Colts to trade us the rights to Andrew Luck, we're going to be in the basement of the NFL for the next 4-5 years. I have zero faith in his ability to evaluate and draft talent. He's hit lightning in a bottle with a few late round picks, but his 2nd-5th round evaluations and draft history would be enough to show a GM not named Elway the door. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebestever6 Posted September 10, 2019 Share Posted September 10, 2019 2 minutes ago, MakeDenverGreatAgain said: Does Ellis evaluate and draft talent? Elway has proven he can't do that, and I don't believe in the devil you know vs. devil you don't argument. Unless Elway can convince the Colts to trade us the rights to Andrew Luck, we're going to be in the basement of the NFL for the next 4-5 years. I have zero faith in his ability to evaluate and draft talent. He's hit lightning in a bottle with a few late round picks, but his 2nd-5th round evaluations and draft history would be enough to show a GM not named Elway the door. He's saying start at Ellis and get rid of Elway too. He's not wrong. This teams still eating money from the Keenum deal. Instead of doing that you could pay a portion of wolfe's deal and get something 5th, 6th round pick from a contender ( team that just lost malik jackson for the year. ) This organization is just focused on the present and that's not just Elway. There is no forward thinking and the organization as a whole isn't prioritizing winning. Ellis is a part of that it's not mutually exclusive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe_is_the_best Posted September 10, 2019 Share Posted September 10, 2019 Dang we lose 1 game and we need to get rid of CHJ and Von because they don’t care about winning? Bit of an overreaction. The coaching, sadly, was abysmal. And I thought it was a strong point. If there's 1 thing to boil it down to, that's it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
champ11 Posted September 10, 2019 Share Posted September 10, 2019 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebestever6 Posted September 10, 2019 Share Posted September 10, 2019 39 minutes ago, Joe_is_the_best said: Dang we lose 1 game and we need to get rid of CHJ and Von because they don’t care about winning? Bit of an overreaction. I think the they don't care about winning is the overreaction part due to raw emotion of a loss. Reality, is they do care about winning, deserve to win, and are some key players on our team that still have some sort of value. It's definitely a conversation to be had going forward. Tony Gonzalez got traded from the chiefs in his prime. Golden Tate, Demaryius Thomas last year. When you mess up the draft as bad as this franchise has 2013-2017 you have to replenish the roster somehow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BullsandBroncos Posted September 10, 2019 Author Share Posted September 10, 2019 Yiadom is not starting caliber and something needs to be done about it. Elijah Wilkinson is terrible and is a revolving door. Our OL and coverage abilities haven't changed. Danny Trevathan was one of the biggest FA losses in history for us. We don't have a top flight QB or mobile threat back there to mitigate how terrible they are. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BullsandBroncos Posted September 10, 2019 Author Share Posted September 10, 2019 3 hours ago, 3Amigos_FOREVER said: I saw the same hot mess that everyone else saw, but I'm not sure I agree with the "Flacco is blah" assessment. Outside of taking a sack when he should've thrown it away and a ball that was behind Hamilton (and hamilton stumbled) that prevented a would be 1st down, I thought Flacco played really well. Especially considering the pocket collapsed almost immediately on every dropback. Still has excellent velocity and accuracy across the middle, and his deep ball is definitely still there if he has the time. Took care of it and didn't turn it over, and the red zone woes can't be laid at his feet entirely. A lot to be down on from this game, but Flacco isn't one of them. Not yet, at least. The man speaks the truth. Flacco was one of the reasons the game was even as close as it was. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebestever6 Posted September 10, 2019 Share Posted September 10, 2019 (edited) 15 minutes ago, BullsandBroncos said: Our OL and coverage abilities haven't changed Coincidentally, two out of 3 of our top free agents already have concerning injuries in Callahan, and James that were supposed to address those areas. Edited September 10, 2019 by thebestever6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MakeDenverGreatAgain Posted September 10, 2019 Share Posted September 10, 2019 3 hours ago, Joe_is_the_best said: Dang we lose 1 game and we need to get rid of CHJ and Von because they don’t care about winning? Bit of an overreaction. The coaching, sadly, was abysmal. And I thought it was a strong point. If there's 1 thing to boil it down to, that's it. No we should get rid of them because our window is slammed shut and by time this team contends both will be 33-35 years old as positions where you see players fall off the cliff overnight. CHJ could easily net a 3rd and 5th from a contender, and Von and a 5th for a 1st and a 3rd or something like that. That said, I have zero confidence in our front offices ability to scout, draft and develop young talent, so I think our rebuild window could easily stretch into the 10-12 year range, starting from the 2016 post Super Bowl season. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1234567 Posted September 10, 2019 Share Posted September 10, 2019 3 hours ago, Joe_is_the_best said: Dang we lose 1 game and we need to get rid of CHJ and Von because they don’t care about winning? Bit of an overreaction. The coaching, sadly, was abysmal. And I thought it was a strong point. If there's 1 thing to boil it down to, that's it. We didn't lose one game. We've lost 22 games out of the last 33. We haven't been a legit playoff threat since the day we won the Super Bowl 3 years ago. And during those losing stretches, the best players on our team have been ghosts. I love Von and Chris. But we should have traded both of them 3 years ago when they were actually worth something. It's not an over reaction, or even an emotional one. Von miller is the kind of talent that can single handedly turn your entire defense around. Yet for the last three years he hasn't. Even with the addition of Chubb. At some point you have to stop and ask yourself, why is that? Why does a guy with literal Michael Jordan level talent at his position continue to be part of a defense that looks completely average? Why does a guy who can literally destroy an entire offensive game plan by himself continue to disappear for month long stretches at a time? The answer is that while he might have Michael Jordan level talent, he clearly does not have Michael Jordan type drive. He doesn't care whether they win or lose. And that kind of attitude will destroy a locker room. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Broncofan Posted September 10, 2019 Share Posted September 10, 2019 2 hours ago, thebestever6 said: Coincidentally, two out of 3 of our top free agents already have concerning injuries in Callahan, and James that were supposed to address those areas. To be fair, the James injury was a complete fluke play. It happens. Callahan has a longer history of injury, but that's also why he came at a discount. 2 hours ago, BullsandBroncos said: Yiadom is not starting caliber and something needs to be done about it. Elijah Wilkinson is terrible and is a revolving door. Our OL and coverage abilities haven't changed. Danny Trevathan was one of the biggest FA losses in history for us. We don't have a top flight QB or mobile threat back there to mitigate how terrible they are. Yiadom & Wilkinson are starting year 2. One's a Rd3 pick, one's a UDFA. They would be fantastic assets if they could start year 2. But the reality is with Yiadom, you hope that he's ready to start by end of year, and be a strong 2-year starter. That's a good yield for a Rd3 pick. Anything Wilkinson gives us that's league average for 1-2 years is a win in his rookie deal. Part of rebuilding is being patient. We can't say we need to rebuild - and then we scream at the top of our lungs when a year 2 guy struggles in week 1. If he's a high-priced FA, or a Day 1 pick, sure, let's get worked up a little, because the price paid means we should expect immediate returns. But these kind of players take time. If we believe it's a rebuild - then we have to show some patience. It's also why we don't throw Fant out to the wolves for a bad 1st game, either - being a TE, a year 1 contribution is literally a 1 in 20 shot for any 1st/2nd round TE (Engram is the only recent one, VD being the other in distant past). We can't say we want to let the kids play - then cringe when they struggle. The reality is we should embrace a full rebuild, and stop with the Theo Riddick / Dekoda Watson trade nonsense. If we get vets, min-wage, or at least 2+ year deals (without big guaranteed $ but lets the team be in charge) so there's some future gain. But that also means we accept the hiccups along the way. I mean, it's what we did in 2011 and 1H 2012 - until some Tebow magic and then PFM came along. We just forget what life was like back then. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
germ-x Posted September 10, 2019 Share Posted September 10, 2019 (edited) I fully understand Fangio had some mismanagement in his 1st game as an HC and Scangerello was terrible on a lot of levels. I don’t think the issues with this team will be because of coaching, however. In terms of coaches this is arguably the best staff Elway has put together. Fangio is an exceptional defensive mind and LB coach. Donatell is an accomplished DB coach at multiple stops. Munchak is one of the 2-3 best OL coaches in the game. While this is Scangerellos 1st NFL OC gig he is thought of as an up and comer who knows how to coach QBs. Kollar has been terrific with Denver’s DL for years. There are also a lot of interesting guys like Renaldo Hill and what not. IMO, this is actually a very good staff with many of them having a track recorded of being high quality NFL coaches. That brings me to the point, this team lacks talent. I think this staff will coach guys up and we will see improvements from players throughout the year. At the end of the day though, based off of what I saw last night, the lack of talent on this roster is more concerning than the coaching staff and that’s on Elway. Edited September 10, 2019 by germ-x 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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