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drfrey13

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9 hours ago, drfrey13 said:

I believe Guenther and Gruden did not have a working relationship. 

On Guenther:

“I met Paul Guenther when my brother was the offensive coordinator with the Bengals. I loved the way the Bengals play defense, up the field, single gap, get after it … (Bengals linebacker) Vontaze Burfict, undrafted out of Arizona State, became a star player. (Guenther) can coach coaches. He can coach a lot of different situations. That’s what I love.”

They way Gruden makes it sound he made up his mind that he wanted to try and get Guenther on staff if he ever came back before he decided to come back.  Pagano was never in the plans or an option for Gruden.  The same article states that if Del Rio would have stayed Downing was gone but Pagano would have remained.  Another article states that retaining Pagano was discussed when Gruden came on and then later states "Gruden seemingly wanted Paul Guenther from the moment he was linked to the Raiders job".  Somebody or some people not named Gruden wanted to keep Pagano.  If it was RM then that explains a lot.

John Pagano would make absolutely no difference. He's such a genius that nobody gave him a DC job. His resume is on par with Guenther but they're running different schemes. So Gruden picked a coach running the scheme he wants.

Reminds me of the time people were saying Cable was a great HC when he was fired for Hue. That's probably the same people now saying he's a terrible Oline coach.

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3 hours ago, Totty said:

The guy has shown next to nothing after suspension and injury riddled years in NE with a HOF QB throwing to him.  Maybe if it were a signing, and not a trade scenario.  I just have a major disdain for the guy.  

Why? Because of his addiction? He's done nothing to harm anyone other than himself. Seems a little odd to have disdain for someone you've never met. Don't understand what they've gone through. And who's not done anything to hurt anyone, etc. Just my opinion on the matter.

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29 minutes ago, big_palooka said:

Why? Because of his addiction? He's done nothing to harm anyone other than himself. Seems a little odd to have disdain for someone you've never met. Don't understand what they've gone through. And who's not done anything to hurt anyone, etc. Just my opinion on the matter.

Not a good teammate. 

2013 - suspended for substance abuse

2014 -  arrested dwi

2014 - violation of team rules

2015 - suspended for substance abuse

2016 - request denied for reinstatement because he failed another drug test

2018 - released from Browns for 'violating teams trust'

2018 - Now with NE left team for 'mental illness' while away, NFL said he was facing an indefinite ban for violating the terms of his conditional reinstatement under the NFL drug policy.

2018 - NE won the SB while he was suspended.  

 

Not exactly model citizen status.  I understand addiction is a self punishing situation, but that doesn't mean we wasn't hurting his team while he was out.  He was in fact hurting others.  

 

Pardon me for not being the first in line to welcome him to the Silver and Black.  We dealt with Aldon.  We dealt with AB.  We dealt with Rolando.  We have dealt with plenty enough stupidity.  I know they all can't be angels.  Burfict, Incognito, etc.  You would be the first one in line big_palooka to be calling the organization out on this move if it were to fail.  

Edited by Totty
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2 hours ago, oakdb36 said:

John Pagano would make absolutely no difference. He's such a genius that nobody gave him a DC job. His resume is on par with Guenther but they're running different schemes. So Gruden picked a coach running the scheme he wants.

Reminds me of the time people were saying Cable was a great HC when he was fired for Hue. That's probably the same people now saying he's a terrible Oline coach.

First Gruden, although the head coach, has very little input on the defense except holding his defensive coaches accountable.  He may have liked Guenther's style of scheme but he had the players that proved they could run Pagano's scheme.  You are right that he is a senior defensive assistant and not a coordinator but that does not mean he is not as good as Guenther.  To say the coordinator does not make a difference is ridiculous.  I guess we should have just kept KNJ because it did not make a difference.  Pagano relies more on scheme while Guenther relies more on talent.  Another reason why I would have taken Pagano.  This would have been a defensive team for the first couple years and Gruden did not want that.  He wanted to build up from the bottom and have his offense lead the way.  If we have success while keeping Pagano and Mack then Gruden gets the same criticism as Tampa Bay.  He wanted to lose and when the offense is ready to make us successful then the defense can be good.  Gruden would rather look good and lose than look bad and win.

As far as Cable is concerned a good head coach and a good o-line coach do not necessarily need the same good qualities.  My o-line coach must know and be able to teach every aspect of the system that fits the O-coordinators scheme.  My head coach is more of a delegator, motivator, and visionary.  My CEO can not do my job but he understands its purpose and function within his system.  Cable very easily could have been a good head coach and a bad o-line coach.  I am not giving my opinion of what he is just explaining why it is possible.

Edited by drfrey13
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6 hours ago, big_palooka said:

Just because one man struggled with addiction, he's going to come into an organization and have a negative impact on another who is 2 years sober? Some of the junk you people think is feasible on an NFL team is ridiculous. 

Rather than respecting Waller and his journey in a locker room full of leaders... you think a guy like Gordon is just going to come derail him? You think his support system and his mental state is that weak?

Just absurd

So a true addicts environment is of no consequence?  Not saying Gordon puts him over the edge but you put two addicts together and chances are that one of them will draw the other closer to their personal point in their own recovery.  Waller could have a positive impact on Gordon or Gordon could have a negative effect on Waller.  We do not know which way it will go so it is a risk.  That was my point for everyone saying there is no risk involved.  There is also the risk of dedicating time and effort into incorporating a talented player into our system that might not be here very long and forcing others to change roles a third time since training camp.  We did Mack last year and AB this year already.  One screw-up from Gordon and he is gone.  He has shown over the years he is more likely to screw-up than to make it through the year.  He has played in 58 games and been suspended for 35.  Burfict has played in 79 games and suspended for 22 including the BS suspension this year.  He is more volatile than Burfict and Burfict at least plays hard.

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6 hours ago, big_palooka said:

Rather than respecting Waller and his journey in a locker room full of leaders... you think a guy like Gordon is just going to come derail him? You think his support system and his mental state is that weak?

2

If anything I think it'd be the opposite. Waller's commitment to recovery and a newfound dedication to football could help Gordon get back on track. 

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4 hours ago, Totty said:

You would be the first one in line big_palooka to be calling the organization out on this move if it were to fail.  

I'm not going to call out the organization for a low risk signing that can be cut at no damage to the organization. If they were trading assets for him, sure but he's a FA. 

I was in favor of both Burfict and Incognito just FYI for the same low risk reasons. 

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3 hours ago, drfrey13 said:

So a true addicts environment is of no consequence?  Not saying Gordon puts him over the edge but you put two addicts together and chances are that one of them will draw the other closer to their personal point in their own recovery.  Waller could have a positive impact on Gordon or Gordon could have a negative effect on Waller.  We do not know which way it will go so it is a risk.  That was my point for everyone saying there is no risk involved.  There is also the risk of dedicating time and effort into incorporating a talented player into our system that might not be here very long and forcing others to change roles a third time since training camp.  We did Mack last year and AB this year already.  One screw-up from Gordon and he is gone.  He has shown over the years he is more likely to screw-up than to make it through the year.  He has played in 58 games and been suspended for 35.  Burfict has played in 79 games and suspended for 22 including the BS suspension this year.  He is more volatile than Burfict and Burfict at least plays hard.

I think you're making ridiculous assumptions about risk without knowing either man personally. There are 53+ men on the team. Waller is already apart of the team and has his place. The thought of Gordon joining and two addicts gravitating towards each other is just absurd. 

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35 minutes ago, big_palooka said:

I think you're making ridiculous assumptions about risk without knowing either man personally. There are 53+ men on the team. Waller is already apart of the team and has his place. The thought of Gordon joining and two addicts gravitating towards each other is just absurd. 

Then I am going to say that thinking a WR and TE not spending any time together on a football team is naive.  The same can be said about to people with addiction issues in the same work environment.  I am not saying Waller is going to fall off the wagon but for you to think there is zero risk is ridiculous or ignorance to addiction.  Waller will impact Gordon or Gordon will impact Waller.  It will happen if they are on the team together.  This does not mean Waller relapses or Gordon stays clean either.  It just increases the chances of it happening.  2 years clean is good but is by no means a long time when it comes to addiction.  Since it is a life long disease Waller would be considered a young child when it comes to sobriety.  3 year relapse rates are very high even for those with good circumstances.  The key would be recognition of his triggers but it is a highly personalized situation.  Over time it gets easier but at 2 years he still has a fight on his hands.

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I have an addictive personality myself so I’m careful what I allow into my environment. Yet still I’m exposed to quite a bit of temptation. Yet I’m not an addict and I give into temptations from time to time. I’ve worked in the field and have personally seen those on the road to recovery and those peer bonds both helping and hurting their sobriety. I’ve had friends from HS who were 5 years clean die in the past year from hanging out with other HS friends who partied and took the super powerful stuff. So 100% there IS a risk and why bring in a player with a HISTORY like Gordon’s onto a team with a player who is on the rise, just got paid and would most likely bond with each other because of that common struggle. 

I’m not against Gordon and he’d have my support once on the team. Just think there is risk.

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