Chiefs WR Tyreek Hill out "a few weeks"

[Jakuvious]

2 minutes ago, Bolts223 said:

I would say that 2007 & 2010 were better and that 2011 & 2012 were roughly in the same ballpark.

Point being: You said that the Patriots coaching staff wasn't one that could produce an historic offense like the 2018 Chiefs. I just gave you examples of when the Patriots offenses were around as good if not better. 

I think this offense is more talented than all of those offenses except for maybe 2007.

That is not at all what I said. Ever.

[Bolts223]

7 minutes ago, Jakuvious said:

That is not at all what I said. Ever.

You said: "Like, if we're talking the type of coaching more likely to result in records and numbers and such, that's easily in KC's favor IMO."

I interpret that to mean: "The Patriots coaching staff isn't likely to produce an offense to result in records and numbers and such. KC's is."

Brady/Belichick/McDaniels have produced historic offenses before: 2007 being the best example.

My point being that you saying that the Patriots are less likely than the Chiefs to produce an historic offense isn't correct. The historic offense that the Chiefs produced last year would be maybe the 3rd best offense of the Brady/Belichick era. Not too far ahead of #4 and #5 either.

 

And also: Even if they don't produce record numbers like the Chiefs do that doesn't mean they aren't just as good or better. The Patriots are much more of an offense that will control a clock and exhaust a defense than the Chiefs are.

With that being said: This Patriots offense can absolutely score 30-33+ a game.

Edited September 10, 2019 by Bolts223

[Jakuvious]

1 minute ago, Bolts223 said:

You said: "Like, if we're talking the type of coaching more likely to result in records and numbers and such, that's easily in KC's favor IMO."

I interpret that to mean: "The Patriots coaching staff isn't likely to produce an offense to result in records and numbers and such. KC's is."

Brady/Belichick/McDaniels have produced historic offenses before: 2007 being the best example.

My point being that saying that the Patriots are less likely than the Chiefs to produce historic offenses isn't correct. The historic offense that the Chiefs produced last year would be maybe the 3rd best offense of the Brady/Belichick era. Not too far ahead of #4 and #5 either.

Me saying that KC has the type of coaching more likely to result in numbers means, just that, that I think it's more likely. Not that New England can't. Just less likely to do so. You're setting up a strawman, trying to make my point seem like one that's easier to refute.

Your opinion that the 2010 offense was better is, just that, an opinion. The only stat you have for that is DVOA. The 2010 Pats had less points, less TDs, less yards, less yards per play, less yards per pass, less yards per rush, less yards per drive, less points per drive. They turned the ball over less, I'll give them that. But that's it.

2007 is the only year that's definitively on the level or on a higher level than what the Chiefs did last year. So of the 11 years that the Pats have had the Brady/Belichek/McDaniels trio, they have once put together an all-time great kind of offense. In the 1 year that the Chiefs have had the Mahomes/Reid duo, they have also once put together an all-time great offense. Sure, I don't expect it to happen every year, but let's not act like the 2007 Pats are the norm for the Pats offense. It's not. Historically the Pats have almost always been in the top 5, in a 400 - 450 point kind of range, with some D/ST TDs to help pad that a bit, as a relatively normal high level offense.

Additionally, my point about coaching was not intended to get down to the numbers. Maybe I'm offbase on this, but I don't feel like I would be in the minority to suggest that Andy Reid from a play design and play call perspective is a more impressive mind as an offensive coach than Josh McDaniels or Bill Belichek (again, on offense exclusively. Bill has him destroyed elsewhere.) That's all I was really trying to say. The Pats will look great on offense because Brady is Brady. The Chiefs have Mahomes but they also have an offensive mastermind. McDaniels will more or less give you an output that matches what you have on paper in terms of talent. Give him the 2007 Pats they'll be great, sure. But it's not like he did anything special with mediocre talent in St. Louis or Denver. I dunno, I don't feel like it's an outrageous comment to say that the Chiefs have coaching more conducive to a creative and dynamic offense than the Pats do.

[Soko]

20 minutes ago, Jakuvious said:

Yes. I think they're close, though. Gordon's the better deep threat, Watkins is the better YAC guy. WOuldn't really argue it either way though. Like I said, I just think in the overall discussions of the Pats offense, he's getting a lot of credit for 2013 when he hasn't been that in some time.

I mean, I don’t think he’ll be that - but mostly because he’s not going to get those types of targets. Gordon (or Brown) aren’t going to have career years statistically on the Patriots. His ability is still there, though. And he averaged more yards after catch than Watkins did last year, for whatever that’s worth. Gordon’s not easy to tackle. 

We just disagree on a lot regarding the Patriots, I guess (we are far apart on Michel).

[Jakuvious]

32 minutes ago, Yin-Yang said:

I mean, I don’t think he’ll be that - but mostly because he’s not going to get those types of targets. Gordon (or Brown) aren’t going to have career years statistically on the Patriots. His ability is still there, though. And he averaged more yards after catch than Watkins did last year, for whatever that’s worth. Gordon’s not easy to tackle. 

We just disagree on a lot regarding the Patriots, I guess (we are far apart on Michel).

He had more YAC per catch, but much of that just came from having more yards per catch in general. A greater percentage of Watkins yards came from YAC because he was getting more slants and hitches than posts or gos. I do agree they won't necessarily be used that way. Watkins will likely be used more downfield with Hill out now too. But from a skillset perspective I think Gordon is better deep and Watkins is better after the catch. And I never said Gordon is easy to tackle. Just like it isn't like Watkins is a bad deep threat. I just think Watkins is harder to tackle. The Chief coaching staff's favorite thing to do last year was compare him to a RB YAC wise.

I'd be happy to hear what I might be missing with Michel. I won't pretend to have seen every game of his as a Pat. In the ones I have seen, I guess my main gripe with him is that he seems to have power, but not the balance to turn it into a really dangerous trait. One of the things that made Kareem Hunt so dangerous for us was his combo of power and balance, where he'd lower his shoulder into a defender and keep pushing or he'd bounce off, regain his balance and re-accelerate. Michel seems to like to lower his shoulder into a defender and just fall forward. Which is still useful, gets you that extra yard or two, but not great. Neither his speed nor agility seem special though. Vision is a plus, but I think the OL play makes it easier for that to seem like a plus. But again, feel free to tell me what I'm missing, there.

[sammymvpknight]

5 hours ago, Jakuvious said:

....you watched the whole video, right? Because the video you yourself posted said the estimate would be a few weeks up to 6 weeks, just depending on pain. Which is pretty much what the Chiefs are saying. It's only really serious if there's damage to the heart or airway or blood vessels during the dislocation or during the repair, but the tweet from the Chiefs training staff already said there were no complications. It's just the dislocation. The injury is only particularly scary due to location. They would've taken him to a hospital regardless because of that. It's not a dislocation a stadium training staff can handle regardless of severity.

Timestamp:

https://youtu.be/3UEkqhADCmU?t=285

They left it intentionally vague. It was being reported a “few weeks”. 6 is definitely more likely than 2. I do think he has a pretty good chance of being back before the first possible game coming off IR. 

[Buckweath]

8 hours ago, Bolts223 said:

Patriots are better or equal everywhere on offense but TE.

Brady >= Mahomes

Michel/White > Williams/McCoy

Pats O-line > Chiefs O-line

Brown/Gordon/Edelman > Hill/Watkins/Hardman

Kelce > Watson

Gronk was washed up and a shell of himself last year. Gordon played 7 games and didn't play at all in the postseason. Last years' Patriots team was the weakest we had seen in years. (And they still won the SB)

We've seen what a Patriots offense can do when you have weapons comparable to this one.

2006 Patriots scored 24 points a game with Gafney/Caldwell/Brown as it's WR.

2007 Patriots scored 36 points a game with Moss/Welker/Stallworth at it's WR. Everything else on offense generally remained the same.

And I do think this is the most talent the Patriots have had on offense since 2007.

Do you even realize that you went from saying that the Pats offense last year was the weakest we have seen in years to saying they are now the most talented since the 2007 team, when they basically just added AB and lost Gronk?

I just wish I could make money off of those bad predictions.

Mahomes is clearly better than Brady. He is #1.

Those RBs are pretty much equal. McCoy looks real good.

Kelce is more like >>>> Watson.

Andy Reid > McDaniels but of course you wouldn't mention the coaches despite the fact that they have a more significant impact than most players.

All in all, very little doubt in my mind that the Chiefs will be anything between a bit and a lot better offensively than the Pats, and this is taking into account Hill's injuries.

And it's clear some fans like you still don't understand what Mahomes is. He is next level.

 

 

Edited September 10, 2019 by Buckweath

[SBLIII]

13 hours ago, Buckweath said:

What?

The only offense that could rival that Pats offense is the Chiefs' with Hill.

The Pats last year had pretty much all those same players plus Gronk but less Brown and they were not even a bit close to the Chiefs offense.

Now a 32 year old admittedly still great WR is going to make them score 10 more points per game? 

Yeah, no.

I won't call for them to average 37 points per game. That said they will average over 30 easily. They did that last year when Edelman and Gordon played. And both were mid season additions. 

 

2018 game 1 WRs were Hogan, Dorsett, Patterson, McCarron

2019 game 1 WRs were Edelman, Gordon, Dorsett, Meyers

 

2018 WR corps was Gordon (11 games), Edelman (12 games), Hogan, Dorsett, Patterson

2019 WR corps will be Brown, Edelman, Gordon, Dorsett, Harry (mid season), Meyers

 

RB room is a lot better. Gronk is gone, a loss but not a big one. Only people who constantly watched our games know what I'm talking about, he was not a high impact player.

 

I think the Patriots will average 32-33  points per game. 

 

 

[Buckweath]

2 hours ago, SBLIII said:

I won't call for them to average 37 points per game. That said they will average over 30 easily. They did that last year when Edelman and Gordon played. And both were mid season additions. 

 

2018 game 1 WRs were Hogan, Dorsett, Patterson, McCarron

2019 game 1 WRs were Edelman, Gordon, Dorsett, Meyers

 

2018 WR corps was Gordon (11 games), Edelman (12 games), Hogan, Dorsett, Patterson

2019 WR corps will be Brown, Edelman, Gordon, Dorsett, Harry (mid season), Meyers

 

RB room is a lot better. Gronk is gone, a loss but not a big one. Only people who constantly watched our games know what I'm talking about, he was not a high impact player.

 

I think the Patriots will average 32-33  points per game. 

 

 

Gordon, Brown and even Edelman at his age carry some risks. I could say Brady too.

But I definitely could see the Pats averaging more than 30. 

Thing is I am pretty sure that the Chiefs will average at least 32-33 and no way less than 30 PPG barring unforeseen circumstances.

They just put 40 on arguably the best defense they will face and on the road.

I know they wont perform that well every game but even without Hill it might still be the best offense in the league. That's Mahomes for you. Maybe the next big thing..

[SBLIII]

Just now, Buckweath said:

Gordon, Brown and even Edelman at his age carry some risks. I could say Brady too.

But I definitely could see the Pats averaging more than 30. 

Thing is I am pretty sure that the Chiefs will average at least 32-33 and no way less than 30 PPG barring unforeseen circumstances.

They just put 40 on arguably the best defense they will face and on the road.

I know they wont perform that well every game but even without Hill it might still be the best offense in the league. That's Mahomes for you. Maybe the next big thing..

I'm not doubting the Chiefs offense.

[Bolts223]

7 hours ago, Buckweath said:

Do you even realize that you went from saying that the Pats offense last year was the weakest we have seen in years to saying they are now the most talented since the 2007 team, when they basically just added AB and lost Gronk?

I just wish I could make money off of those bad predictions.

Mahomes is clearly better than Brady. He is #1.

Those RBs are pretty much equal. McCoy looks real good.

Kelce is more like >>>> Watson.

Andy Reid > McDaniels but of course you wouldn't mention the coaches despite the fact that they have a more significant impact than most players.

All in all, very little doubt in my mind that the Chiefs will be anything between a bit and a lot better offensively than the Pats, and this is taking into account Hill's injuries.

And it's clear some fans like you still don't understand what Mahomes is. He is next level.

 

 

You realize that the 2006 Pats was one of the weaker Pats teams as well? They had Reche Caldwell as their number one WR. The next year they revamp the WR core and it's an historic offense. That's basically the same situation between last year and this year. At the start of 2018 the Patriots didn't have Edelman, Gordon or Brown on the roster. In the playoffs last year they only had Edelman. And Gronk was washed up and a shell of himself last year. The presence of him and the attention he draws just because he's Gronk will obviously be something that will be missed, but it will more than be made up for with AB and Gordon.

Anyways:

- Mahomes is not better than Brady. He certainly has more physical ability and more freakish athletic ability, but that does not equal better QB.

- I think you are getting your hopes up on McCoy. One game means nothing. He looked terrible last year and the Bills cut him. Had by far the worst Y/A of his career.

- Even if you want to argue that Reid is better than McDaniels, you aren't really taking into account the entire picture here. First of all, the biggest difference between the Pats and the Chiefs offenses is that the Pats have a really good O-line and the Chiefs is just decent. The Pats have the best O-line coach in the league. And going back to the QB discussion, Brady in his own right is a brilliant offensive mind. Mahomes is obviously an amazing talent, but he does not have Brady's brain and pretty much no QB in the league right now does. The Patriots offense is the most complex offense in the league and there's a reason no other team is really able to emulate it.

- I think Mahomes is a great QB and probably going to be one of if not the top QB of his generation. Brady is literally the GOAT. It's not a knock on Mahomes to say he's not as good as Brady. Nobody is.

 

Edited September 10, 2019 by Bolts223

[Buckweath]

1 minute ago, Bolts223 said:

You realize that the 2006 Pats was one of the weaker Pats teams as well? They had Reche Caldwell as their number one WR. The next year they revamp the WR core and it's an historic offense.

Anyways:

- Mahomes is not better than Brady. He certainly has more physical ability and more freakish athletic ability, but that does not equal better QB.

- I think you are getting your hopes up on McCoy. One game means nothing. He looked terrible last year and the Bills cut him. Had by far the worst Y/A of his career.

- Even if you want to argue that Reid is better than McDaniels, you aren't really taking into account the entire picture here. First of all, the biggest difference between the Pats and the Chiefs offenses is that the Pats have a really good O-line and the Chiefs is just decent. The Pats have the best O-line coach in the league. And going back to the QB discussion, Brady in his own right is a brilliant offensive mind. Mahomes is obviously an amazing talent, but he does not have Brady's brain and pretty much no QB in the league right now does. The Patriots offense is the most complex offense in the league and there's a reason no other team is really able to emulate it.

- I think Mahomes is a great QB and probably going to be one of if not the top QB of his generation. Brady is literally the GOAT. It's not a knock on Mahomes to say he's not as good as Brady. Nobody is.

 

Allright I'm done discussing this. 

Mahomes is clearly better than Brady right now and now let's just both watch the Chiefs have a superior offense than the Pats during this 2019-2020 season.

I'm the one who told you so.

[Bolts223]

11 minutes ago, Buckweath said:

Allright I'm done discussing this. 

Mahomes is clearly better than Brady right now and now let's just both watch the Chiefs have a superior offense than the Pats during this 2019-2020 season.

I'm the one who told you so.

Whatever dude. I think you're wrong and I think a lot of people would disagree with you on that.

[Soko]

12 hours ago, Jakuvious said:

He had more YAC per catch, but much of that just came from having more yards per catch in general. A greater percentage of Watkins yards came from YAC because he was getting more slants and hitches than posts or gos. I do agree they won't necessarily be used that way. Watkins will likely be used more downfield with Hill out now too. But from a skillset perspective I think Gordon is better deep and Watkins is better after the catch. And I never said Gordon is easy to tackle. Just like it isn't like Watkins is a bad deep threat. I just think Watkins is harder to tackle. The Chief coaching staff's favorite thing to do last year was compare him to a RB YAC wise.

Difference of opinion, is all. I think Gordon is the better YAC guy.

12 hours ago, Jakuvious said:

I'd be happy to hear what I might be missing with Michel. I won't pretend to have seen every game of his as a Pat. In the ones I have seen, I guess my main gripe with him is that he seems to have power, but not the balance to turn it into a really dangerous trait. One of the things that made Kareem Hunt so dangerous for us was his combo of power and balance, where he'd lower his shoulder into a defender and keep pushing or he'd bounce off, regain his balance and re-accelerate. Michel seems to like to lower his shoulder into a defender and just fall forward. Which is still useful, gets you that extra yard or two, but not great. Neither his speed nor agility seem special though. Vision is a plus, but I think the OL play makes it easier for that to seem like a plus. But again, feel free to tell me what I'm missing, there.

Michel’s biggest gripes right now are his A) passing down ability, and B) how conservative he is. You mentioned well-roundedness earlier; Sony isn’t there, but he won’t have the chance to show it either. Apparently that’s been his focus this offseason, but he’s never going to beat out White or Burkhead in that regard. 

And as you said, Michel is conservative right now. He breaks tackles but if there’s more than one tackler at a time, he usually takes the yardage given and falls forward for the extra ~3. I guess that’s a criticism, though I’ve heard that used as a compliment for other backs (Frank Gore, off the top of my head). Michel’s speed is good, not great, and he’s definitely got above average quickness. He’s not Dion Lewis or prime-Shady, but he makes people miss. 

In terms of #1 running backs, he’s closer to 16 than he is to 5. I guess that’s average, as you said. But I think the league is flush with talent at the running back position, so the talent at 16 isn’t far off from the talent at 10, IMO. 

In direct comparison to the Chiefs backs, if we’re going to highlight how White is used perfectly within a scheme from a coaching standpoint, I’d retort with a question; when was the last time Reid struggled to get production from his running backs?

[SBLIII]

8 minutes ago, Bolts223 said:

Whatever dude. I think you're wrong and I think a lot of people would disagree with you on that.

Buck loves the hyperbole. I don't have a problem with someone saying Mahomes is better. There is certainly a good argument to be made here. But context is also needed. Is Brady a better QB suddenly if he tosses 40+ TDs this year than last year when he threw 29 to Dorsett and Hogan? No.