Week 1 Take Aways

[diehardlionfan]

2 hours ago, detroitroar said:

I dont think any of them are in his stratosphere.

Wins? I'm done trying to argue that. I'll just concede and hope we have a good enough team around him this year to get those wins.

 

 

I agree about the wins. Far to much emphasis on wins. Wins in a team sport is a consideration but we all know that losses are beyond the control of any individual. 

 

[Sllim Pickens]

15 hours ago, diehardlionfan said:

I agree about the wins. Far to much emphasis on wins. Wins in a team sport is a consideration but we all know that losses are beyond the control of any individual. 

 

The Indianapolis Colts won their division every year with Peyton Manning.  He gets hurt and they win 2 games.  A good/great QB can overcome roster depth and make a team a winner.  As I stated, its not only wins, but there have been plenty of games we just haven't been in, and although Stafford shows that poise every now and then to lead his team to a W, it isn't often.  I get Stafford is not in the Manning stratosphere, but that's the point.  He isn't a top QB, he is a middle of the road QB.  I think it would be hard to find someone better, but that is available.  The point being he is ranked about where he belongs.  Maybe 2/3 spots lower than he should be but not 10 spots lower than he should be.

[detroitroar]

45 minutes ago, Sllim Pickens said:

The Indianapolis Colts won their division every year with Peyton Manning.  He gets hurt and they win 2 games.  A good/great QB can overcome roster depth and make a team a winner.  As I stated, its not only wins, but there have been plenty of games we just haven't been in, and although Stafford shows that poise every now and then to lead his team to a W, it isn't often.  I get Stafford is not in the Manning stratosphere, but that's the point.  He isn't a top QB, he is a middle of the road QB.  I think it would be hard to find someone better, but that is available.  The point being he is ranked about where he belongs.  Maybe 2/3 spots lower than he should be but not 10 spots lower than he should be.

1 Theres a huge gap between Peyton level, and middle of the road QB

2 They had easily the worst backup QB in the league take over for him. I believe Polian himself said that's the main reason he was fired.

3 Those Indy teams had some good olines.

That argument doesn't stand.

[detroitroar]

Stafford has had one pro bowl year out of an olinemen I believe...maybe 2.

I think a lot of fans chalk it up as some negligible factor and I couldn't disagree with that more.

Stafford has absolutely shown a lack of faith in protection and panicked when he didnt need to and made bad decisions because of it. Every QB does that though. Even the greats.

Manning looked like utter trash in that last SB by the way. Funny how that works.

[detroitroar]

I'm sorry...last 2 superbowls.

[Sllim Pickens]

4 minutes ago, detroitroar said:

1 Theres a huge gap between Peyton level, and middle of the road QB

2 They had easily the worst backup QB in the league take over for him. I believe Polian himself said that's the main reason he was fired.

3 Those Indy teams had some good olines.

That argument doesn't stand.

The argument is that good/great QBs win games.  So even if they had an average backup QB, they would have won 5 or 6 games.  Guess how many we typically win with Stafford? 

And yes, the gap between Manning and middle of the road is huge.  But Brady, Brees, Rodgers are all on Mannings level.  Mahomes is easily better and even if he doesn't have the history to be on Mannings level, right now he is a league MVP.  Russell Wilson and Matt Ryan I would easily take over Stafford.  Ben Roethlisberger (minus his off field stuff) I would take over Stafford.  If we had the chance right now to trade Stafford for Watson, Goff, Wentz, I would take that trade in a heart beat.  Phil Rivers has been more productive but at this stage of his career is close to Stafford IMO.  Then you have Dak and Cam that I would argue are better, and likely would take on trade although Newton is just about as inconsistent as Stafford but he offers more with his legs. That's 11 QBs I would easily take over Stafford and another 3 or 4 that are in the realm.  That doesn't include the potential of Baker Mayfield, it doesn't include the potential of Kyler Murray, Lamar Jackson, Josh Allen (who probably has similar arm strength and can move).  Bottom line is until Stafford does something other than put up stats on a 6-10 team, he doesn't deserve to be higher.  He doesn't offer potential like some of the others, he offers a middle of the road team.  I don't see him making any of those teams better of the QBs I mentioned than if they stay with what they have now. 

[detroitroar]

Well just agree to disagree. 

I could make great arguments for Stafford over all of those QBs save the first few but I dont have the energy anymore.

For the record off the top of my head, I'd put Stafford in the 5 - 9 range. Well see what happens.

[Karnage84]

1 minute ago, detroitroar said:

Well just agree to disagree. 

I could make great arguments for Stafford over all of those QBs save the first few but I dont have the energy anymore.

For the record off the top of my head, I'd put Stafford in the 5 - 9 range. Well see what happens.

I'm with you in the sense that I can see Stafford being a top 10 QB. He has the potential to be in that conversation. When he was throwing for 5,000 yards, he was absolutely involved in that discussion. He's demonstrated that he can come back and carry the team on his back to win games. On the flip side, QB's are measured by w's/l's and rings. Stafford has not been a part of a lot of high caliber teams and the team has generally been swimming in mediocrity. We all know the struggles that this team has had in putting a team together around him. However, other QB's do seem to rise above that and bring up the quality of play to their level.

 He's sitting at around #16 right now to me based on what we've seen up until this point. Stafford can be a top 12 QB IMO in this offense.  I have faith that he'll get there and I'm looking forward to seeing him show that.

 

[diehardlionfan]

5 hours ago, Sllim Pickens said:

The argument is that good/great QBs win games.  So even if they had an average backup QB, they would have won 5 or 6 games.  Guess how many we typically win with Stafford? 

And yes, the gap between Manning and middle of the road is huge.  But Brady, Brees, Rodgers are all on Mannings level.  Mahomes is easily better and even if he doesn't have the history to be on Mannings level, right now he is a league MVP.  Russell Wilson and Matt Ryan I would easily take over Stafford.  Ben Roethlisberger (minus his off field stuff) I would take over Stafford.  If we had the chance right now to trade Stafford for Watson, Goff, Wentz, I would take that trade in a heart beat.  Phil Rivers has been more productive but at this stage of his career is close to Stafford IMO.  Then you have Dak and Cam that I would argue are better, and likely would take on trade although Newton is just about as inconsistent as Stafford but he offers more with his legs. That's 11 QBs I would easily take over Stafford and another 3 or 4 that are in the realm.  That doesn't include the potential of Baker Mayfield, it doesn't include the potential of Kyler Murray, Lamar Jackson, Josh Allen (who probably has similar arm strength and can move).  Bottom line is until Stafford does something other than put up stats on a 6-10 team, he doesn't deserve to be higher.  He doesn't offer potential like some of the others, he offers a middle of the road team.  I don't see him making any of those teams better of the QBs I mentioned than if they stay with what they have now. 

For every QB that has won games a great offence has made a middle of the road QB look great. 

A great QB can win a few games. The same can be said for a great RB. I’ve seen defensive ends control games. How about the great pick 6 that wins the game. Everyone overlooks the one key block that allows the QB time to make the game winning throw. Or the incredible catch by the receiver. 

Something I like to do when assessing QB rankings is look how many all pros are on his team. It’s interesting to look at it historically as well. How many HOF players on a team etc. 

I rank Stafford in the 8 to 10 range.

I’ve never been a Stafford maniac but over time he’s certainly improved my opinion of his ability. 

He was drafted by a bad organization to play for a bad team. He was fortunate to have CJ but beyond that he hasn’t had a stellar line or other great playmakers. The Lions running game has been pathetic for years. Hes been forced to play from behind far to many times, throwing the ball far to often, taking increased chances as the game proceeds. The Lions do have a respectable number of come back wins with Stafford at QB. That would seem to be important to many but I view it as the offence getting their collective selves in gear. 

The inconsistency in coaching has also hindered him in my view. Bevell is the 4th OC since Stafford joined the Lions. We could discuss the new offensive systems and playbooks with each new change at OC or constantly developing new relationships with coaches but at this point I think everyone has determined how they feel about him so none of us will change minds here.

I feel Stafford has been held accountable for all the failures of the Lions and never given the respect he in my opinion has earned. We’ve seen what he can do with some blocking and receivers that catch. The difference in so many games is 2 or 3 key plays and those don’t all fall on a QB. 

I expect this will be our last season with Stafford. I expect they will miss the playoffs and the last excuse for Quinn and Patricia will be that they never got their guy at QB.

 

[Sllim Pickens]

1 hour ago, diehardlionfan said:

For every QB that has won games a great offence has made a middle of the road QB look great. 

A great QB can win a few games. The same can be said for a great RB. I’ve seen defensive ends control games. How about the great pick 6 that wins the game. Everyone overlooks the one key block that allows the QB time to make the game winning throw. Or the incredible catch by the receiver. 

Something I like to do when assessing QB rankings is look how many all pros are on his team. It’s interesting to look at it historically as well. How many HOF players on a team etc. 

I rank Stafford in the 8 to 10 range.

I’ve never been a Stafford maniac but over time he’s certainly improved my opinion of his ability. 

He was drafted by a bad organization to play for a bad team. He was fortunate to have CJ but beyond that he hasn’t had a stellar line or other great playmakers. The Lions running game has been pathetic for years. Hes been forced to play from behind far to many times, throwing the ball far to often, taking increased chances as the game proceeds. The Lions do have a respectable number of come back wins with Stafford at QB. That would seem to be important to many but I view it as the offence getting their collective selves in gear. 

The inconsistency in coaching has also hindered him in my view. Bevell is the 4th OC since Stafford joined the Lions. We could discuss the new offensive systems and playbooks with each new change at OC or constantly developing new relationships with coaches but at this point I think everyone has determined how they feel about him so none of us will change minds here.

I feel Stafford has been held accountable for all the failures of the Lions and never given the respect he in my opinion has earned. We’ve seen what he can do with some blocking and receivers that catch. The difference in so many games is 2 or 3 key plays and those don’t all fall on a QB. 

I expect this will be our last season with Stafford. I expect they will miss the playoffs and the last excuse for Quinn and Patricia will be that they never got their guy at QB.

 

The inconsistency in coaching and surrounding players is a part of who he is now.  The fact that no coach or coordinator can make him consistently look good tells me just as much about Stafford as it does the organization.  He has arm talent but has been ruined by our organization and I don't see him magically improving in his 30s.  He wont get consistency, he wont have a great O line this year, and I think the hits and lack of o line and drops have ruined his psyche. I don't hold him accountable for our losses.  I get its a team game.  But I also don't leave him without blame.  As I said above, I don't see him going into any situation with a top 12 QB and making them better.  He would improve the Bears, as would 15 or more other QBs, he would improve the Jets, Bills, and Jags but again I don't think he improves them more than 12-15 other QBs.  Stafford is an all time Lion great.  I like him, I support him, but I don't think he is better than he is.

[detroitroar]

You keep saying arm talent but Stafford is much more than that.

 

[diehardlionfan]

On 2019-09-13 at 5:36 PM, Sllim Pickens said:

The inconsistency in coaching and surrounding players is a part of who he is now.  The fact that no coach or coordinator can make him consistently look good tells me just as much about Stafford as it does the organization.  He has arm talent but has been ruined by our organization and I don't see him magically improving in his 30s.  He wont get consistency, he wont have a great O line this year, and I think the hits and lack of o line and drops have ruined his psyche. I don't hold him accountable for our losses.  I get its a team game.  But I also don't leave him without blame.  As I said above, I don't see him going into any situation with a top 12 QB and making them better.  He would improve the Bears, as would 15 or more other QBs, he would improve the Jets, Bills, and Jags but again I don't think he improves them more than 12-15 other QBs.  Stafford is an all time Lion great.  I like him, I support him, but I don't think he is better than he is.

I don’t think that’s objective. The reality is the Lions coaches, coordinators and GM’s have all been absolute failures. Success in an organization starts at the top. 

The lack of a running game, oline, poor play calling all negatively impacts Stafford's impact and numbers. I didn’t want the Lions to draft Stafford because the team was not close to being ready to add a franchise QB. 

Stafford isn’t without blame but as is often the case the QB receives far to much blame. Many of the QB’s you rank above Stafford have had the benefit of playing for much more complete teams with consistent coaching, offensive systems etc. It’s highly unlikely any of them would’ve enjoyed the success they’ve achieved if they were unfortunate enough to be drafted by Detroit.

[diehardlionfan]

On 2019-09-13 at 6:22 PM, detroitroar said:

You keep saying arm talent but Stafford is much more than that.

 

Arm talent.

Toughness.

Dedication.

Football I.Q.

His major weakness in my view is trying to do to much. 

[detroitroar]

22 minutes ago, diehardlionfan said:

Arm talent.

Toughness.

Dedication.

Football I.Q.

His major weakness in my view is trying to do to much. 

And he has improved his pocket presence tremendously over the last few years. He has exceptional touch as well.

I'm telling you guys, I'm not just a homer on this. I was a Lions fan long before Stafford came along. If he is the problem I'd be the first to point it out. 

I've watched every game hes played at least 2 times over. 

As diehard said, his biggest problem is trying to do too much but you have to try and win the game.

[diehardlionfan]

28 minutes ago, detroitroar said:

And he has improved his pocket presence tremendously over the last few years. He has exceptional touch as well.

I'm telling you guys, I'm not just a homer on this. I was a Lions fan long before Stafford came along. If he is the problem I'd be the first to point it out. 

I've watched every game hes played at least 2 times over. 

As diehard said, his biggest problem is trying to do too much but you have to try and win the game.

Agreed. 

When Stafford first started his career his touch was awful. I remember him drilling the ball always! Or, throwing a swing pass in the feet of the RB when he tried to take something off the ball. In my view it’s the most improved area of his game.

There is no quit in Stafford and it’s a shame the Lions have never been able to put the pieces in place to be competitive.  

Unfortunately with every passing season it looks more likely that his time with the Lions will have been wasted.

Perhaps the next rebuild will feature building a team with effective line play creating a situation where the next QB can be successful.