Week 1 Take Aways

[MrLionzz]

On 9/9/2019 at 3:27 PM, Karnage84 said:

AP did very well with Washington last year. He's a 1st/2nd down back with no special teams value... the Redskins drafted Guice last year and he is also a 1st/2nd down back with no special teams value. Which is why he isn't getting played. He rushed for over 1,000 yards and 7 TD's with a 4.2 ypc last year. I'm not suggesting he should be our bellcow but a) he isn't getting played in Washington and likely would want out; b) he'd be extremely cheap and c) may offer an upgrade over what I saw with CJ Anderson yesterday.

 

AP is one of the best ever, yeah I said it, almost every great running back when they run and get out in space they run hard but not just hard, they use every muscle in their bodies they run intent.  What I mean by this is, their shoulders are moving and their arms are moving like crazy, they even get their hips rockin, they just run with everything that they have. AP is just that, he is a 1st ballot Hall of Famer and he has known he was better than the players around him since college heck even high school but I know for a fact, mostly because of experience, that high schoolers think they are animals in football, but players like AP, CJ, Barry, Emmit, just to name a couple, not only knew it when they were young they felt it, what a special feeling that would be to know yes I still have to work hard but I have special talent that others don't have, Barry probably knew way back to pop warner when he broke his first run, probably said yup this is easier than I thought.  The game comes easier to them.  AP if more featured during games could still get you over 1000 yards.  Could he stay healthy?  Still got it after all his injuries, just like Gore who just keeps going, 

[SimbaWho]

I watched the replay and for the most part I didn't understand the hate... Till the 4th quarter when it was just typical Lions stuff.

To be honest the team was good enough to win. Coaches blew this one for the team imo in the 4th.

Decker... had a bad game. Really bad, the Trent Williams trade ideas don't sound so dumb now cause well... we need him. Lions won't do what it takes because people still show up to Ford Field but... Hey at least everyone knows it now and can stop calling me crazy. It doesn't get easier for Decker with Chargers/Eagles coming to town with better players he'll face than Suggs. 

Defense wore down, and Flowers isn't worth all that money.*(So far). An maybe most concerning is the RUN GAME WASN'T GOOD!

Coleman actually did make some plays(he also got plays made on him too but it looked like the Cardinals avoided Slay for the most part and picked on the other DB's.)

Walker had an up/down game. I actually think he can get a lot better! He surprised me. 

Hock looked really good! I mean really good. No one could stay with him. Dude looks like a complete mis-match every game. I would design the offense around him right now. I think I heard somewhere he wasn't even in for that many plays...(less than 20) and still came up big with those huge numbers receiving and a TD.  

 

Very concerning though to be honest. I don't think they'll fix the Oline play, I've been worried all off-season about our O-line and they're proving why we need to be worried. I don't expect this team to be anywhere near .500. I expect them to go 0-6. Honestly, and not get a win till they play the Giants in late October... If that does happen I hope ownership does the right thing and just hits the puke button and regurgitates the whole front office coaching staff out of her mouth like a bad night of drinking. Do the interim thing and look to the off-season for a real GM/Coach, and what to do with Stafford. He's still got value, I'm not sure we can ever milk it properly here in DET. I gotta believe a lot of teams around the league would give up a lot to get him still and it could really jump start a rebuild. It's not his fault at this point the team literally can't put anything around him(coaches/players/line). Dude looks to be doing everything he can. It's not his fault. IF the next GM comes in and decides he can build a winner real fast, then I'm ok with them not trading Stafford too. A lot of my faith in the Lions are going to be about who they hire next, who's the next group of fellas. I have no faith in who's currently here, and haven't. They came here with essentially no experience and all Patriot hype.  

 

[Karnage84]

35 minutes ago, SimbaWho said:

I watched the replay and for the most part I didn't understand the hate... Till the 4th quarter when it was just typical Lions stuff.

To be honest the team was good enough to win. Coaches blew this one for the team imo in the 4th.

Decker... had a bad game. Really bad, the Trent Williams trade ideas don't sound so dumb now cause well... we need him. Lions won't do what it takes because people still show up to Ford Field but... Hey at least everyone knows it now and can stop calling me crazy. It doesn't get easier for Decker with Chargers/Eagles coming to town with better players he'll face than Suggs. 

Defense wore down, and Flowers isn't worth all that money.*(So far). An maybe most concerning is the RUN GAME WASN'T GOOD!

Coleman actually did make some plays(he also got plays made on him too but it looked like the Cardinals avoided Slay for the most part and picked on the other DB's.)

Walker had an up/down game. I actually think he can get a lot better! He surprised me. 

Hock looked really good! I mean really good. No one could stay with him. Dude looks like a complete mis-match every game. I would design the offense around him right now. I think I heard somewhere he wasn't even in for that many plays...(less than 20) and still came up big with those huge numbers receiving and a TD.  

 

Very concerning though to be honest. I don't think they'll fix the Oline play, I've been worried all off-season about our O-line and they're proving why we need to be worried. I don't expect this team to be anywhere near .500. I expect them to go 0-6. Honestly, and not get a win till they play the Giants in late October... If that does happen I hope ownership does the right thing and just hits the puke button and regurgitates the whole front office coaching staff out of her mouth like a bad night of drinking. Do the interim thing and look to the off-season for a real GM/Coach, and what to do with Stafford. He's still got value, I'm not sure we can ever milk it properly here in DET. I gotta believe a lot of teams around the league would give up a lot to get him still and it could really jump start a rebuild. It's not his fault at this point the team literally can't put anything around him(coaches/players/line). Dude looks to be doing everything he can. It's not his fault. IF the next GM comes in and decides he can build a winner real fast, then I'm ok with them not trading Stafford too. A lot of my faith in the Lions are going to be about who they hire next, who's the next group of fellas. I have no faith in who's currently here, and haven't. They came here with essentially no experience and all Patriot hype.  

 

I feel the issues with the run game came from a) Cardinals seem to have a decent defense, especially against the run; b) Gameplan seemed to try and take advantage of the fact they were missing their two top corners. It worked pretty well for most of the game; c) Our OL struggled against their DL

Trent Williams: Assuming the Redskins would even trade him, which is up in the air right now, would he be worth the cost? Due to his age, you're not going to be sending out Tunsil level compensation but it won't be too far off. Decker seems to be a mid-ground LT with potential to play better because we've seen him play better. If he has a high caliber starting LG next to him, would we see the Decker of his rookie season again? Because if so, that guy is more than adequate to man the left side. You can get guards for significantly less than a Pro Bowl caliber LT and possibly improve on two spots with one move. Where would you put Decker if we do add Williams?

 

[NFL_Fan]

Would you agree though Trent Williams would put us back in a Cap hell. Two guys a like 50 millions cap? Stafford and T. Williams) No WAY!! We coould of had Suh, Calvin, and Stafford if they like huge contract players. Would you agree also that firing everyone would ruin Staffords season and make him less valuable? Say he makes playoff or 9-7. Worth more then a QB going 2-14 or something terrible. I would trade Decker in the offseason for whatever you can get. Move on from Wagner. Move on from Glasglow. 

[cp0k2]

The Trent Williams talk is moot imo. The 'Skins don't want to deal him out of spite so he's probably not going anywhere no matter the price. And the Lions shouldn't be trading high picks and going "all in" this year for anyone because this team isn't a contender with or without Williams. 

[diehardlionfan]

12 hours ago, NFL_Fan said:

Would you agree though Trent Williams would put us back in a Cap hell. Two guys a like 50 millions cap? Stafford and T. Williams) No WAY!! We coould of had Suh, Calvin, and Stafford if they like huge contract players. Would you agree also that firing everyone would ruin Staffords season and make him less valuable? Say he makes playoff or 9-7. Worth more then a QB going 2-14 or something terrible. I would trade Decker in the offseason for whatever you can get. Move on from Wagner. Move on from Glasglow. 

Yes, it would be cap hell. No way it happens.

I’m always about the big uglies. Teams need to be built front to back, inside outside but moving on from three players from one position group in one season is a tall order. Not saying it can’t be done but it’s a tough task if the goal is improvement.

I think we are all over reacting after one game. Decker had the worst game of his career from a pass blocking perspective but his run blocking graded out extremely well. 

I understand what your saying with Stafford however everyone in the league knows his strengths and weaknesses. I don’t think his value changes much based on team success. I also don’t think he’s going anywhere. At least not yet. There just isn’t an option out there that gives the Lions a better chance to win. 

I don’t think anyone had great confidence in the Lions this season but after the opening game my main concern is coaching.

[detroitroar]

Hopefully we rally after that utter collapse. 

I think we match up very favorably against the Chargers. 

[Karnage84]

4 hours ago, diehardlionfan said:

Yes, it would be cap hell. No way it happens.

I’m always about the big uglies. Teams need to be built front to back, inside outside but moving on from three players from one position group in one season is a tall order. Not saying it can’t be done but it’s a tough task if the goal is improvement.

I think we are all over reacting after one game. Decker had the worst game of his career from a pass blocking perspective but his run blocking graded out extremely well. 

I understand what your saying with Stafford however everyone in the league knows his strengths and weaknesses. I don’t think his value changes much based on team success. I also don’t think he’s going anywhere. At least not yet. There just isn’t an option out there that gives the Lions a better chance to win. 

I don’t think anyone had great confidence in the Lions this season but after the opening game my main concern is coaching.

I've played with it a bit on the Over The Cap calculator. It doesn't seem like it would be that big of an issue. We have like $17M in cap space now and it would bring us down to about $7M. If we throw in a guy like Wagner, it's going to open things up. I'm also not against restructuring Stafford to open up some more cash. If he can play like he did on Sunday in this offense, I have zero issues committing to him moving forward. Stafford didn't lose that game for us.

[diehardlionfan]

2 hours ago, Karnage84 said:

I've played with it a bit on the Over The Cap calculator. It doesn't seem like it would be that big of an issue. We have like $17M in cap space now and it would bring us down to about $7M. If we throw in a guy like Wagner, it's going to open things up. I'm also not against restructuring Stafford to open up some more cash. If he can play like he did on Sunday in this offense, I have zero issues committing to him moving forward. Stafford didn't lose that game for us.

That’s interesting!

If they can manage it under the cap then perhaps Quinn can shake loose a top LT or OG.

I think I’m just used to the Lions being up against the cap.🤠

[Karnage84]

43 minutes ago, diehardlionfan said:

That’s interesting!

If they can manage it under the cap then perhaps Quinn can shake loose a top LT or OG.

I think I’m just used to the Lions being up against the cap.🤠

I'm not a capologist, so I could be completely off on this.

Right now, Williams is counting as $3.5M against the Redskins cap, which is prorated bonus money. He has a $10,850,00 cap hit + $3.5M bonus + $250,000 per game bonus = $4M for a full season. If he had just played and all was well, Williams would have earned $18,350,000 for the 2019 season. If the article that I read is correct, the per game bonus would be paid out at seasons end. If Washington trades him, they're on the hook for the $3.5M bonus.

The Lions currently have $18M in cap space. We have nearly $8.5M in dead cap

Rick Wagner's contract on a post-June 1st trade is $2.9M in Dead Cap and $9M in cap savings.

Current Cap: $18M

Trade Wagner: + $9M of room ($27M)

Add Williams: - $10.85M

NET: $16.15M of Cap Space

This would make a ton of sense for the Lions. However, Washington gains absolutely nothing in cap space with this move and he's only counting or a minimal amount.

If we're going to get Williams, we are likely going to need to dish out some decent compensation. Financially though, it feels like it can and should work.

Even if Washington won't take any players with contracts like Wagner's off of our plate, we'd still have $8M in cap space this year to play with in terms of injuries.

Edited September 12, 2019 by Karnage84

[detroitroar]

Stafford is probably the most underrated QB in the league.

Nfl.com has him at 18 and even dropped him a couple spots essentially blaming him for the loss. Bahahahaha!!!

No one in their right mind would put the likes of Prescott, Jackon, Cousins, Mayfield ahead of him. Wow.

I'd love to see Stafford play behind an offensive line that gives him 5 seconds to throw....even if its not with us.

[Sllim Pickens]

33 minutes ago, detroitroar said:

Stafford is probably the most underrated QB in the league.

Nfl.com has him at 18 and even dropped him a couple spots essentially blaming him for the loss. Bahahahaha!!!

No one in their right mind would put the likes of Prescott, Jackon, Cousins, Mayfield ahead of him. Wow.

I'd love to see Stafford play behind an offensive line that gives him 5 seconds to throw....even if its not with us.

Mayfield and Jackson I wouldn't at the moment but they could move up. Prescott and Cousins are right in that realm and doesn't shock me if they are higher.  Cousins is similar in that he has put up numbers but not wins.  Prescott has won games and put up numbers.  I like Staffords arm talent but the decision making and consistency has been an issue for his whole career.  I get he hasn't had consistency throughout the organization in his career either but he has plenty of tape showing he isn't a top 10 QB, but has the potential to be.  I think he is rated pretty close to where he should be until he gets consistent and wins games.  Good QBs do that even with not so great teams.

[detroitroar]

16 minutes ago, Sllim Pickens said:

Mayfield and Jackson I wouldn't at the moment but they could move up. Prescott and Cousins are right in that realm and doesn't shock me if they are higher.  Cousins is similar in that he has put up numbers but not wins.  Prescott has won games and put up numbers.  I like Staffords arm talent but the decision making and consistency has been an issue for his whole career.  I get he hasn't had consistency throughout the organization in his career either but he has plenty of tape showing he isn't a top 10 QB, but has the potential to be.  I think he is rated pretty close to where he should be until he gets consistent and wins games.  Good QBs do that even with not so great teams.

I dont think any of them are in his stratosphere.

Wins? I'm done trying to argue that. I'll just concede and hope we have a good enough team around him this year to get those wins.

 

 

[Karnage84]

58 minutes ago, detroitroar said:

Stafford is probably the most underrated QB in the league.

Nfl.com has him at 18 and even dropped him a couple spots essentially blaming him for the loss. Bahahahaha!!!

No one in their right mind would put the likes of Prescott, Jackon, Cousins, Mayfield ahead of him. Wow.

I'd love to see Stafford play behind an offensive line that gives him 5 seconds to throw....even if its not with us.

I'd probably put Stafford in the range of 14-18. He's probably a top 10 talent but he hasn't been consistent and the win's aren't where you want a top 10 guy to be. We all know there are different reasons why this could be the case. However, it is what it is. If the Lions can actually put a team together around him, I expect Stafford's production to be closer to that top 10 guy.

[Sllim Pickens]

8 minutes ago, detroitroar said:

I dont think any of them are in his stratosphere.

Wins? I'm done trying to argue that. I'll just concede and hope we have a good enough team around him this year to get those wins.

 

 

Wins aren't the only stat, but they are an important one.  But even looking at everything else, stats, talent, decision making, consistency.... Those guys are right in his general range.  If this was year three, I would say this is crazy, no way would I take Dak over Stafford, look at his potential and arm strength.  But after 10 years of mediocrity, he needs to do more to move out of that mid teens range of QBs.  He has a big arm, but it doesn't make him a great QB.