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Week 2 GDT: CHI (0-1) @ DEN (0-1)


Broncofan

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23 minutes ago, BroncoBruin said:

It will never be a full tear-down because it's not in Elway's nature to ever do that. They'll keep Von because on paper he's still the best player, and the undisputed face of the franchise who helps fans stay interested in what's been maybe the most boring team in football over the last four years.

 

I think the Chiefs direction and that boring state will help them reconsider.  Especially, if Von isn't helping the bottom line as much because this isn't a contending team.

There's business and there's ignorance. 

Edited by thebestever6
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Vic has to figure out how to get more out of Von and Chubb as pass rushers without compromising the scheme. If it's not possible, I do think you need to have the discussion about trading Von because you're not getting the most out of them. Vic has never had two elite EDGE guys and maybe it's fair to wonder whether an elite sideline-to-sideline LB makes a bigger difference on this defense than an edge rusher when you already have one great one who's young in Chubb. 

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34 minutes ago, DiehardBronxFan said:

Sorry, but you are pointing out the blatantly obvious to a straw man argument.  Sure, they’d rather have the lead.  That’s not the point.  The point is whether you should have gone for the 2 in the first place, with the poor odds of conversion and Denver’s abysmal offensive performance within the 10 yard line.  Again, room for disagreement - but anything but “blatantly obvious”.  To paint it that way against your own straw man argument is, frankly, disrespectful. I know you know better than that. 

But that's not what most of us are debating, is it? Paul Mac and Jolly are saying that it was the wrong call because it meant the Bears had 30 seconds to win the game whereas OT would mean a chance to win outright. This is a farcical opinion in my eyes.

I hated the 2 point call at the time but when we made it, I was ecstatic with the outcome. These 2 are saying their reaction after the success was a negative one which is mental in my opinion.

Angry at myself for continuing to discuss this. 

 

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I don’t usually get to watch games live anymore but do follow along here and pitch in when I can.

 

This might be one of the stupidest things I’ve seen argued here and I survived here through the Tebow Civil War..

 

Bolles saying he doesn’t agree with his reputation of holding a lot is amusing though. Dude is dumber than a rock and hasn’t learned a thing in 3 years.

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1 hour ago, BroncoBruin said:

Vic has to figure out how to get more out of Von and Chubb as pass rushers without compromising the scheme. If it's not possible, I do think you need to have the discussion about trading Von because you're not getting the most out of them. Vic has never had two elite EDGE guys and maybe it's fair to wonder whether an elite sideline-to-sideline LB makes a bigger difference on this defense than an edge rusher when you already have one great one who's young in Chubb. 

The Q is whether or not if teams keyed on him, whether he'd enjoy the same success as he did in 2018.  I think I saw that half of his 13 sacks were blown coverage (unblocked) or clean-up sacks with times > 3 secs (coverage).    I'm not a fan of PFF as the end-all metric (as you know), but I can respect that they explain their downgrade of Chubb's 2018 season - https://www.pff.com/news/pro-the-stats-dont-tell-the-whole-story-on-bradley-chubb.

Now, having said that all of that - I'm willing to find out, if we can get a premium return that's even better than Mack's (2 1sts, not a 1st/2nd swap).   Because as you said, it may be that 2 EDGE's isn't nearly as important to Fangio's scheme as it was in Wade's old scheme.   And on a rebuilding team, even if Chubb can't be the next coming of Von Miller, but is more Ja'daveon Clowney, if he's on his rookie deal and 5th year option and 6th year franchise tag, you take the cost control and relative bargain 10/10 times (the key part being the rebuilder).  

But again, sadly, that's just fan talk.  I don't see Elway & Ellis thinking that far ahead.   CHJ, absolutely, given he's a goner (and our redo of his contract included an agreement that the franchise tag would NOT be used - so he's out of here next offseason if we let him walk - so if we can get a Day 2 pick for him before the trade deadline, Elway should absolutely bite on that).   But it won't likely happen in September, and I wonder even if he'll bit in October - fortunately, with the trade deadline pushed back to before week 8, we should all see the writing on the wall, even the FO - and they'll act accordingly with CHJ.   For Von, the moon would have to be offered, and so I doubt it happens this year (especially since the go-for-it-price-be-damned de facto GM BoB and HOU are out of ammunition lol).

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5 hours ago, lomaxgrUK said:

But that's not what most of us are debating, is it? Paul Mac and Jolly are saying that it was the wrong call because it meant the Bears had 30 seconds to win the game whereas OT would mean a chance to win outright. This is a farcical opinion in my eyes.

I hated the 2 point call at the time but when we made it, I was ecstatic with the outcome. These 2 are saying their reaction after the success was a negative one which is mental in my opinion.

 

Not apeaking for p-mac here - but I do think we are on the same page.

we have both said it was the wrong call because -

1. It was the low percentage call

2. We had momentum and the Bears D was gassed going into OT

3. When we got the 2 we forced the Bears to go for it instead of running out the clock. 

Now - would you take a 1 point lead with 30 secs to go - yes.

some have said all we needed was one big defensive play - in fact we needed 4 or 5 defensive plays - the Bears needed one big completion - and they got it.

All these factors should have been taken into account and Fangio should have gone with the PAT. Still no guarantee we win - but we increase the odds of winning.

In the presser Fangio said he did it to make a point / change the culture - but that only works if you win as a result of making the call - we lost.

Edited by jolly red giant
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People defending the call are acting like making the 2 point play was a given. 

 

 

We only had a 48% chance to make that, and even making it only gives a 70% win probability (total win probability = 33.6%)

 

Had we kicked the extra point we’d have a 95% chance to make it and a 50% win probability if we did make it (total win probability = 47.5%)

 

And I’d argue that it’s actually higher than 47.5% given how gassed the Bears D looked.

 

It was an atrocious call by Fangio who continues to look out of his depth.

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People forget that McMmanus MISS the PAT. If Skrine was not offside Denver lose by 1  point 13-12 ( or need to attemp and recover a onsidekick)

No debate to take 2 pts conversion or not by Fangio. Mc Manus MISSED his extrapoint

We lose the game with a bad call on Chicago last drive (roughing the passer) but the game was boring Offense and Defense.

No pressure 0 sacks 0 turnover 2 TDS ,lacks effort in redzone after Raiders and Bears games

Bolles and Leary penalties cost some drives.

Bad play by Flacco inside the 5 yds line.

Others teams in NFL play with their TE....Denver no. Heuerman and Fant when they catch are not the 1st option

Pathetic inside defense.

The good: Sanders / Sutton /Freeman/Wolfe/Simmons

The bad: Bolles/Leary/ILB/OLB/Yiadom

Non factor: Flacco / Lindsay / Fant / Harris

Except Dolphins and Giants we are bad after 2 games. We need to be creative in offense tu put some points but this season will be long.....

Edited by French Fan
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3 hours ago, jolly red giant said:

In the presser Fangio said he did it to make a point / change the culture - but that only works if you win as a result of making the call - we lost.

That's where we disagree I want this team to be aggressive all year being the underdog regardless of outcome. Haven't even seen the press conference. 

Aggressive football now will help this team when it is competing again. I'd be critical of Fangio if this team looked capable/ the better team. When Fangio makes these mistakes long term that's when I'll be critical. 

Our team doesn't have the most depth and a road trip too greenbay.I'm not sure what factors are involved in making the decision not to play for OT. 

 

Edited by thebestever6
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I have to say that although the Broncos' play wasn't exactly stellar, the officiating seemed worse.  I think this new brand of NFL football is horrible.  I watched several games yesterday and I am not sure if I saw a string of five plays in a row where a penalty flag was thrown.  Quite honestly it's just boring now....college is much more pleasant to watch I think...heck, I am excited to see the XFL.  The CFL was fun to watch this summer.  I may be over the NFL.  

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16 minutes ago, jsthomp2007 said:

I have to say that although the Broncos' play wasn't exactly stellar, the officiating seemed worse.  I think this new brand of NFL football is horrible.  I watched several games yesterday and I am not sure if I saw a string of five plays in a row where a penalty flag was thrown.  Quite honestly it's just boring now....college is much more pleasant to watch I think...heck, I am excited to see the XFL.  The CFL was fun to watch this summer.  I may be over the NFL.  

Yup. It’s bad when I can’t even watch a full half of football.

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12 hours ago, broncosfan07 said:

I don’t usually get to watch games live anymore but do follow along here and pitch in when I can.

 

This might be one of the stupidest things I’ve seen argued here and I survived here through the Tebow Civil War..

 

Bolles saying he doesn’t agree with his reputation of holding a lot is amusing though. Dude is dumber than a rock and hasn’t learned a thing in 3 years.

I don't understand how you keep getting called for holding penalties. Seems like a fairly straight forward thing to attempt to improve on. And then not having any accountability. Brutal. Add another thing to the top of the needs list 

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14 hours ago, germ-x said:

Elway and Company have essentially tried to bandaid this team into contention since 2015.  It’s time to embrace the fact that this team lacks talent across the board and make decisions accordingly.  That does not mean a Miami Dolphins type fire sale, but making decisions with 2021 in mind.

How to go about that, I don’t know.  After seeing Lock in person, I don’t think he’s the answer at QB, but personally I’m not that big a fan of the top QB prospects in this draft.  It is a draft loaded with trench talent.  If it were me, I think I’d go that route in both the draft and FA.

Most important thing for this season is to see if Lock is a guy you want as a starter next year. Or if we should give up significant draft capital to get our QB of the future.

BUT did we just commit to Flacco for 3 more years? lmaooo

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13 hours ago, DiehardBronxFan said:

So, whether they convert or not changes whether we should criticize the call or not??  So we should all just react in hindsight? 

Well, yes. Not trying to be disrespectful at all but I always thought that a call was only bad if it didn't succeed. 

Had it failed and we lost the game because of it I'd be ranting at Fangio big time today. it didn't fail therefore in my opinion it was "brilliant, ballsy, aggressive, etc". Choose your adjective.

Hopefully most agree with me. When we start criticizing successful calls along with unsuccessful the gameday posts will exceed 100 pages.

Anyway, nuff said. By the way, I'd take the Von trade you mentioned in a heartbeat.

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