2020 Draft thread

[turtle28]

1 hour ago, offbyone said:

I didn't cherry pick though, I went through the last decade of drafts that we can pass judgement on.  History paints a clear picture, there is no sure thing and the best players generally don't come from the top 5 of the draft.

@tredaddy made the point of if we focus on pass rushers alone that the results are better at the top of the draft, but even there it is far from a sure thing.

You could be correct.  The data we have points towards him being an elite pass rusher.   But he could still end up getting hurt and never live up to his potential and we later find out miami offered us all their first round picks and we could have had multiple all pro players OR Chase Young could be a generational player but we get 2 perennial pro bowlers and a solid starter instead and Montez Sweat turns into a star and so it ends up being a good situation in the end.

The point and literal fact is that there is no exact right or wrong here and we got likely 3 years before we will know.  

Again, anyone can get hurt. You don’t pass on a player bc they may get hurt. That reason doesn’t even register with me and it shouldn’t with anyone. 
 

With Chase Young, I think we’ll know year one if we select him bc I think he’ll be defensive rookie player of the year and have double digit sacks as a rookie.

I’d take the best prospect every time. I think it’s foolish to pass on them. You point all these times when the best players didn’t turn out, I can point out several times when teams traded down and the player they passed on became one of the best in the league while the players they got with those picks didn’t even make it in the league or they don’t have much of an impact.

The most recent example of this is the Browns passing on Julio Jones to trade back and then passing on Carson Wentz to trade back for more picks. The Browns should have Carson Wentz to Julio Jones right now in their passing attack. 

Edited February 29, 2020 by turtle28

[offbyone]

7 minutes ago, turtle28 said:

Again, anyone can get hurt. You don’t pass on a player be they may get hurt. That reason doesn’t even register with me and it shouldn’t with anyone. 
 

With Chase Young, I think we’ll know year one if we select him bc I think he’ll be defensive rookie player of the year and have double digit sacks as a rookie.

I’d take the best prospect every time. I think it’s foolish to pass on them. You point all these times when the best players didn’t turn out, I can point out several times when teams traded down and the player they passed on became one of the best in the league while the players they got with those picks didn’t even make it in the league or they don’t have much of an impact.

The most recent example of this is the Browns passing on Julio Jones to trade back and then passing on Carson Wentz to trade back for more picks. The Browns should have Carson Wentz to Julio Jones right now in their passing attack. 

I agree with all this but I am just saying we can argue any side of it fairly. 

In terms of the injury concern, that is the reason you consider a big package of draft picks, because more than likely you aren't going to lose out on 3 picks.

In terms of passing on the best player, happens constantly, on the other hand the opposite happens where the best player is farther down the draft like JJ Watt, Aaron Donald, etc.  It is a crap shoot.  

Wanting to draft Chase Young is completely reasonable.  Wanting to take a package of draft picks is also reasonable.

[Skins212689]

19 minutes ago, turtle28 said:

Again, anyone can get hurt. You don’t pass on a player be they may get hurt. That reason doesn’t even register with me and it shouldn’t with anyone. 
 

With Chase Young, I think we’ll know year one if we select him bc I think he’ll be defensive rookie player of the year and have double digit sacks as a rookie.

I’d take the best prospect every time. I think it’s foolish to pass on them. You point all these times when the best players didn’t turn out, I can point out several times when teams traded down and the player they passed on became one of the best in the league while the players they got with those picks didn’t even make it in the league or they don’t have much of an impact.

The most recent example of this is the Browns passing on Julio Jones to trade back and then passing on Carson Wentz to trade back for more picks. The Browns should have Carson Wentz to Julio Jones right now in their passing attack. 

Just sticking to the bolded part, why will the Bengals pass on Tua? If not for "Injury" Tua would be the #1 pick over Burrow IMO. To say he wouldn't isn't true due to the interest Tua is still getting now. The interest is so much, rumors are coming out that the Skins may actually take Tua over Young at #2. 

2. It's LoL you picked the Browns out all teams to use as your example. The Browns were the worst team in the league before 2 years ago for how long? Their just starting to catch fire due to a GM who knew how to build a TEAM. 

Edited February 28, 2020 by Skins212689

[turtle28]

1 hour ago, offbyone said:

I agree with all this but I am just saying we can argue any side of it fairly. 

In terms of the injury concern, that is the reason you consider a big package of draft picks, because more than likely you aren't going to lose out on 3 picks.

In terms of passing on the best player, happens constantly, on the other hand the opposite happens where the best player is farther down the draft like JJ Watt, Aaron Donald, etc.  It is a crap shoot.  

Wanting to draft Chase Young is completely reasonable.  Wanting to take a package of draft picks is also reasonable.

Usually I think it’s reasonable when it’s usual prospects in drafts. I haven’t seen a prospect like Chase Young in a draft in a while. I don’t consider him the usual type of prospect teams pass on but, I do respect a few of you guys disagree as do a number of people on Twitter. Just bc I don’t agree with you all on that doesn’t mean I don’t respect you for having a different opinion. I just don’t see it that way bc I think Chase is so much of a better prospect that he’s the type of player you shouldn’t pass on.

Edited February 29, 2020 by turtle28

[turtle28]

18 hours ago, Skins212689 said:

Just sticking to the bolded part, why will the Bengals pass on Tua? If not for "Injury" Tua would be the #1 pick over Burrow IMO. To say he wouldn't isn't true due to the interest Tua is still getting now. The interest is so much, rumors are coming out that the Skins may actually take Tua over Young at #2. 

2. It's LoL you picked the Browns out all teams to use as your example. The Browns were the worst team in the league before 2 years ago for how long? Their just starting to catch fire due to a GM who knew how to build a TEAM. 

I’m not convinced Tua would be going over Burrow after the season that Burrow just had, but it’s possible. Burrow had an historic season for a college QB just like Chase did for a college pass rusher. Tua has never looked as good and as precise of a passer as Burrow looked last year. In fact, it’s part of the reason got hurt each of the last two years w/ his ankles and hip.
 

Tua, instead of getting the ball out from the pocket on time and in rhythm, then not throwing the ball away fast enough when nothing was there, scrambled and then was sacked by two defenders. Burrow was in rhythm all year on almost every play and almost always hit his receivers in the rhythm of the play, Tua is sometimes not in rhythm and in the timing of the play, he makes more off scheduled plays. Which, is why I say his style of play reminds me of Russell Wilson. And, well sadly, it’s one of the reasons he got hurt.

I still think the rumors are a smokescreen and just rumors. You’re wasting your breath/wasting typing your words trying to convince me otherwise. My mind is made up.

I picked the Browns as an example bc obviously it was an awful decision to trade down and it cost them two All-Pro level players. It was an awful decision by their front office to trade down and I think it’d be an awful decision by our front office to trade down and pass on Chase Young just like I think it was an awful decision by our front office to trade down in 2008, in 2011, in 2014 in the 2nd round and 2015 in the 3rd round. We passed on better players and took lesser players each time.

I could go through each of these trade downs and how they didn’t work out in our favor but, you should know what resulted in the trade downs if you know your Redskins draft history.

Also, the Rams trading down twice in 2012 didn’t work out for them either. Don’t forget not only did they trade down and pass on RG3 bc they had Bradford - which made sense - but, they traded down again from#6 and passed on Luke Kuechly to take Michael Brockers as well. The trade downs didn’t work for them at all. Brockers is a good run defender but offers nothing in terms of a pass rush and they passed on an All-Pro MLB in Kuechly. Their 2nd round pick from us in 2012 - Isaiah Pead - gave  them nothing. Ogletree the MLB they took with our 1st round pick in 2013 was pretty good but not great. Then, they drafted Greg Robinson 2nd overall in the 2014 draft.

All of those players didn’t help them win, they should have taken Kuechly. I’m so shocked they Jeff Fisher the defensive minded HC didn’t have Snead their GM take Luke Kuechly in 2012 and then Khalil Mack in 2014, but they didn’t and the RG3 trade down netted them basically nothing. It’s more likely a trade up nets teams more then trade downs.  
 

Give me an example of where a trade down led a team to be a Super Bowl contender or winner within a few years after trading out of the top 10 for lesser prospects.

I’ll wait...

Edited February 29, 2020 by turtle28

[Skins212689]

17 minutes ago, turtle28 said:

I’m not convinced Tua would be going over Burrow after the season that Burrow just had, but it’s possible. Burrow had an historic season for a college QB just like Chase did for a college pass rusher. Tua has never looked as good and as precise of a passer as Burrow looked last year. In fact, it’s part of the reason got hurt each of the last two years w/ his ankles and hip.
 

Tua, instead of getting the ball out from the pocket on time and in rhythm, then not throwing the ball away fast enough when nothing was there, scrambled and then was sacked by two defenders. Burrow was in rhythm all year on almost every play and almost always hit his receivers in the rhythm of the play, Tua is sometimes not in rhythm and in the timing of the play, he makes more off scheduled plays. Which, is why I say his style of play reminds me of Russell Wilson. And, well sadly, it’s one of the reasons he got hurt.

I still think the rumors are a smokescreen and just rumors. You’re wasting your breath/wasting typing your words trying to convince me otherwise. My mind is made up.

I picked the Browns as an example bc obviously it was an awful decision to trade down and it cost them two All-Pro level players. It was an awful decision by their front office to trade down and I think it’s be an awful decision by our front office to trade down and pass on Chase Young just like I think it was an awful decision by our front office to trade down in 2008, 2011 in the 2nd round, 2014 in the 2nd round and 2015 in the 3rd round. We passed on better players and took lesser players each time.

I could go through each of these trade downs and how they didn’t work out in our favor but, you should know what resulted in the trade downs if you know your Redskins draft history.

Also, the Rams trading down twice in 2012 didn’t work out for them either. Don’t forget not only did they trade down and pass on RG3 bc they had Bradford - which made sense - but, they traded down again from#6 and passed on Luke Kuechly to take Michael Brockers as well. The trade downs didn’t work for them at all. Brokers is a good run defender but offers nothing in terms of a pass rush and they passed on an All-Pro MLB in Kuechly. Their 2nd round pick from us Pead have them nothing. Ogletree the MLB they took with our 1st round pick in 2013 was pretty good but not great. Then, they drafted Greg Robinson 2nd overall in the 2014 draft. All of those players didn’t help them win, they should have taken Kuechly. I’m so shocked they Jeff Fisher the defensive minded HC didn’t have Snead their GM take Luke Kuechly in 2012 and then Khalil Mack in 2014, but they didn’t and the RG3 trade down netted them basically nothing. It’s more likely a trade up nets teams more then trade downs.  
 

Give me an example of where a trade down led a team to be a Super Bowl contender or winner within a few years after trading out of the top 10 for lesser prospects.

I’ll wait...

I wouldn't be trading out of the top 10. Miami has the 5th pick and the Lions have the 3rd overall pick. 

I hope it's smokescreen as well or I wouldn't be too happy with them selecting Tua. Would be a dumb decision to give up on Haskins right now in just his second season. 

[PARROTHEAD]

1 hour ago, offbyone said:

I agree with all this but I am just saying we can argue any side of it fairly. 

In terms of the injury concern, that is the reason you consider a big package of draft picks, because more than likely you aren't going to lose out on 3 picks.

In terms of passing on the best player, happens constantly, on the other hand the opposite happens where the best player is farther down the draft like JJ Watt, Aaron Donald, etc.  It is a crap shoot.  

Wanting to draft Chase Young is completely reasonable.  Wanting to take a package of draft picks is also reasonable.

I agree. Can find positives both ways if looking for examples. Dallas built a 3 Super Bowl winning squad by trading away Walker and trusting in gathering talent in the draft. Broncos loved Von Miller, trusted that pick and he anchored the defense to a SB. Both ways have succeeded and failed at times.

 

 

 

[turtle28]

41 minutes ago, Skins212689 said:

I wouldn't be trading out of the top 10. Miami has the 5th pick and the Lions have the 3rd overall pick. 

I hope it's smokescreen as well or I wouldn't be too happy with them selecting Tua. Would be a dumb decision to give up on Haskins right now in just his second season. 

True but you’d still be passing on the best prospect in the draft for lesser prospects. The point stands, I can’t think of a trade down where it worked out for the best for a team when they traded down. I guess the Titans bc they got Jack Conklin & Derrick Henry when they passed on Jared Goff bc they had just drafted Mariotta the year before. That’s the only one I can think of where the trade down netted the Team who traded down multiple great players.

Edited February 29, 2020 by turtle28

[offbyone]

25 minutes ago, PARROTHEAD said:

I agree. Can find positives both ways if looking for examples. Dallas built a 3 Super Bowl winning squad by trading away Walker and trusting in gathering talent in the draft. Broncos loved Von Miller, trusted that pick and he anchored the defense to a SB. Both ways have succeeded and failed at times.

 

 

 

Great examples. 

[turtle28]

34 minutes ago, PARROTHEAD said:

I agree. Can find positives both ways if looking for examples. Dallas built a 3 Super Bowl winning squad by trading away Walker and trusting in gathering talent in the draft. Broncos loved Von Miller, trusted that pick and he anchored the defense to a SB. Both ways have succeeded and failed at times.

 

 

 

The Cowboys already drafted Troy Aikman and Michael Irvin, but out of that trade they did get Emmit Smith, Russell Maryland, Kevin Smith and Darren Woodson.

So, it’s a far fetched point to think that the main reason the Cowboys built a dynasty was bc of the Herschel Walker trade but, it’s true it did help. Most of their best players were drafted or signed w/o that trade.

Edited February 29, 2020 by turtle28

[C-hokie-ole]

well it seems like the debate might be running out of steam so now may be a good time to change things up.  Assuming we pick Chase young i want to know thoughts on who is moving inside on passing downs (a la Justin Tuck) to use the full set of pass rushers, Kerrigan, Sweat, and Young, or is Kerrigan watching from the sideline.

[turtle28]

39 minutes ago, C-hokie-ole said:

well it seems like the debate might be running out of steam so now may be a good time to change things up.  Assuming we pick Chase young i want to know thoughts on who is moving inside on passing downs (a la Justin Tuck) to use the full set of pass rushers, Kerrigan, Sweat, and Young, or is Kerrigan watching from the sideline.

Kerrigan. He did it years past we had a plethora of good edge rushers back when we had Orakpo, Kerrigan and Rob Jackson. 

We also do have 3 good interior pass rushers - Allen, Ioannidis & Payne - so, the opportunities for Kerrigan to do that may not be as much as they were in the past.

I’d rather have the problem of having too many good DL then not enough though.

[LoganF89]

So if Miami really thinks we are interested in going with Burrow or Tua then I think they will reach and try to trade up, and I know their 3 first seems like a lot but.... crazier things have happened. Im absolutely dead set on Chase Young but part of me thinks if Trent doesn't come back a trade back makes sense if its a hell of an offer from Miami, and Miami alone. I hate to pass on Chase but we have a ton of needs that we cant just shell out big money contracts to players.

Im completely fine with taking Chase Young but Im also fine with trading back if we in fact get the 3 first with the dolphins. a trade scenario we ould be looking at with Miami could include Trent Williams, he would be the protector of either burrow or Tua for them. 

here is my trade i would accept

Washingtons receives pick #5, #18, #26, #39

Dolphins receive pick #2, 4th round pick, and Trent Williams

 

Crazier things have happened. Im completely fine at staying at 2 and taking Young but if we could work out a blockbuster like that then its hard to say no, Im not of the right mindset to pay trent williams 18-19 a year on a long term deal. its not happening. Teams know that we arent going to pay him that so they arent going to offer too much for him. a trade with the dolphins makes almost too much sense if they are willing to take williams

a lot of really good players we could take with those picks as well, if we came out of FA with Bradberry, and Hooper I would be completely satisfied using the draft to finish out the roster

 

[offbyone]

2 hours ago, LoganF89 said:

So if Miami really thinks we are interested in going with Burrow or Tua then I think they will reach and try to trade up, and I know their 3 first seems like a lot but.... crazier things have happened. Im absolutely dead set on Chase Young but part of me thinks if Trent doesn't come back a trade back makes sense if its a hell of an offer from Miami, and Miami alone. I hate to pass on Chase but we have a ton of needs that we cant just shell out big money contracts to players.

Im completely fine with taking Chase Young but Im also fine with trading back if we in fact get the 3 first with the dolphins. a trade scenario we ould be looking at with Miami could include Trent Williams, he would be the protector of either burrow or Tua for them. 

here is my trade i would accept

Washingtons receives pick #5, #18, #26, #39

Dolphins receive pick #2, 4th round pick, and Trent Williams

 

Crazier things have happened. Im completely fine at staying at 2 and taking Young but if we could work out a blockbuster like that then its hard to say no, Im not of the right mindset to pay trent williams 18-19 a year on a long term deal. its not happening. Teams know that we arent going to pay him that so they arent going to offer too much for him. a trade with the dolphins makes almost too much sense if they are willing to take williams

a lot of really good players we could take with those picks as well, if we came out of FA with Bradberry, and Hooper I would be completely satisfied using the draft to finish out the roster

 

I think that is a real possibility actually.  Miami fills a big need at LT, plus they have a ton of cap space so his outrageous demands wouldn't be an issue.  

 

I know many here are all in on Chase Young, but I think at this point we can all agree that this draft is looking like it has a very talented first round from top to bottom.  That puts some weight behind the trade down idea.

 

 

 

 

 

[turtle28]

I think it’s smokescreen