How are the refs so awful

[btfd16]

 

Quote

 

A passer who is standing still or fading backward after the ball has left his hand is obviously out of the play and must not be unnecessarily contacted by an opponent through the end of the down or until the passer becomes a blocker, or a runner, or, in the event of a change of possession during the down, until he assumes a distinctly defensive position. However, at any time after the change of possession, it is a foul if:
 

1. an opponent forcibly hits the quarterback’s head or neck area with his helmet, facemask, forearm, or shoulder
2. if an opponent lowers his head and makes forcible contact with any part of his helmet against any part of the passer’s body. This provision does not prohibit incidental contact by the mask or the helmet in the course of a conventional block.

 

 

I mean you can believe Gene is wrong, but it doesn't mean you're right. Pretty obvious in the second picture there is contact to the head or neck area by a forearm... Even after a change in possession, IE fumble, that is a foul. Hell, I'd even say it happened to Brees in the NFCCG on the final pick. https://operations.nfl.com/the-rules/nfl-video-rulebook/roughing-the-passer/

Yes, there were missed calls. There are missed calls on every. single. play. It happens. This is getting ridiculous.

Edited September 16, 2019 by btfd16

[Raves]

6 minutes ago, btfd16 said:

 

 

I mean you can believe Gene is wrong, but it doesn't mean you're right. Pretty obvious in the second picture there is contact to the head or neck area by a forearm... Even after a change in possession, IE fumble, that is a foul. https://operations.nfl.com/the-rules/nfl-video-rulebook/roughing-the-passer/

Yes, there were missed calls. There are missed calls on every. single. play. It happens. This is getting ridiculous.

So can a QB redirect a defenders hand/arm into their head and it still be a penalty?  If you go back and watch the replay you'll see that as Goff's arm was moving forward and across his body he hit the defender's wrist with the inside of his elbow and pushed the defenders arm to his face. Good examples of this happening start at about 5:13 in this clip with several angles showing what happened.

 

[btfd16]

Just now, Raves said:

So can a QB redirect a defenders hand/arm into their head and it still be a penalty?  If you go back and watch the replay you'll see that the defenders arm hit Goff's arm and as Goff's arm was moving forward and across his body he hit the defender's wrist with the inside of his elbow and pushed the defenders arm to his face. Good examples of this happening start at about 5:13 in this clip with several angles showing what happened.

 

Buddy, I am quoting the rule. Are they good rules? No, most of the time they aren't. But it is the rule. Contact by a forearm to the head is a foul. Idc how it happens. Just like it was to Brees in the NFCCG. You are literally arguing with words... Idk what to tell you.

[BleedTheClock]

It was a horrendous call by the refs.

But it didn't cost the Saints the game at all. The Saints lost because their defense is a joke and Brees was hurt. Yeah the refs should face a consequence for that, but how ridiculous to say "New Orleans was hosed" out of a victory. That's crybaby stuff that I've seen so often with Saints fans that it's getting comical. Yeah bad calls exist.

 

Referees are terrible. I'd flash their home address across the ticker any time they make a bad call. My hatred for referees runs deep.

[Raves]

Just now, btfd16 said:

Buddy, I am quoting the rule. Are they good rules? No, most of the time they aren't. But it is the rule. Contact by a forearm to the head is a foul. Idc how it happens. Just like it was to Brees in the NFCCG. You are literally arguing with words... Idk what to tell you.

I'm trying not to get confrontational as it seems like you simply disregarded my question, so let's start from scratch.  I'm not saying it's not a penalty because of this, it's a legit rules question and I provided the example/video replay for examination.  I know in certain situations considering hits to the head, like helmet to helmet, the actions of the offensive player can mean that it's not a penalty, unless they've changed it.  So in this situation without the contact by Goff to the defenders arm redirecting it, he wouldn't have hit him in the head.  This also comes into play with low/late hits on QBs if the player was blocked into the the QB to cause the contact.

I was simply seeing if there was further clarification on things such as, the QB redirecting the arm to their helmet.  If not then all QBs should make sure that they redirect blows if they can just like NBA players jumping into defenders trying to draw a foul that way.

[btfd16]

20 minutes ago, Raves said:

I'm trying not to get confrontational as it seems like you simply disregarded my question, so let's start from scratch.  I'm not saying it's not a penalty because of this, it's a legit rules question and I provided the example/video replay for examination.  I know in certain situations considering hits to the head, like helmet to helmet, the actions of the offensive player can mean that it's not a penalty, unless they've changed it.  So in this situation without the contact by Goff to the defenders arm redirecting it, he wouldn't have hit him in the head.  This also comes into play with low/late hits on QBs if the player was blocked into the the QB to cause the contact.

I was simply seeing if there was further clarification on things such as, the QB redirecting the arm to their helmet.  If not then all QBs should make sure that they redirect blows if they can just like NBA players jumping into defenders trying to draw a foul that way.

Gotcha. My apologies. Yeah I did not see any more clarification regarding that. It's a slippery slope we're on right now in the NFL and doesn't seem like it's getting better.

[SWATcha]

27 minutes ago, BleedTheClock said:

It was a horrendous call by the refs.

But it didn't cost the Saints the game at all. The Saints lost because their defense is a joke and Brees was hurt. Yeah the refs should face a consequence for that, but how ridiculous to say "New Orleans was hosed" out of a victory. That's crybaby stuff that I've seen so often with Saints fans that it's getting comical. Yeah bad calls exist.

I don't think any reasonable Saints fan would claim that call cost the Saints the game.  It does however provide quite a shift in momentum on a day they had already lost Brees. 

That "joke" of a defense was doing just fine until the 2nd half. Black uniforms, 90 degrees outside, and an offense that couldn't stay on the field more than 2min adds up. 

Is what it is. Hopefully Teddy/Hill can win some games. I'm more upset that I have tickets to next week's game against the Seahawks and it would of been the first time I got to see Brees play live 

[FrantikRam]

38 minutes ago, Raves said:

I'm trying not to get confrontational as it seems like you simply disregarded my question, so let's start from scratch.  I'm not saying it's not a penalty because of this, it's a legit rules question and I provided the example/video replay for examination.  I know in certain situations considering hits to the head, like helmet to helmet, the actions of the offensive player can mean that it's not a penalty, unless they've changed it.  So in this situation without the contact by Goff to the defenders arm redirecting it, he wouldn't have hit him in the head.  This also comes into play with low/late hits on QBs if the player was blocked into the the QB to cause the contact.

I was simply seeing if there was further clarification on things such as, the QB redirecting the arm to their helmet.  If not then all QBs should make sure that they redirect blows if they can just like NBA players jumping into defenders trying to draw a foul that way.

 

This is ultimately the problem with complaining about calls in the first place. We can get into the details and maybe that was or was not roughing - maybe Brees was roughed on the INT in the NFCCG. On the no call play, there was a hands to the face by a Saints offensive linemen on Aaron Donald. There were missed calls on both teams - and there are missed calls on both teams in every game.

Here's how fans IMO should approach officiating: did both teams have roughly the same amount of penalties? Did a blown call completely decide the game? If the answer to the first is yes and second is no, then fans shouldn't complain IMO.

Because there are penalties committed on every play, and with how fast players move, it's impossible for refs to be 100% accurate. I'd be super frustrated as a Saints fan though because having something happen in three games in a row is disappointing for any team.

[Raves]

7 minutes ago, FrantikRam said:

 

This is ultimately the problem with complaining about calls in the first place. We can get into the details and maybe that was or was not roughing - maybe Brees was roughed on the INT in the NFCCG. On the no call play, there was a hands to the face by a Saints offensive linemen on Aaron Donald. There were missed calls on both teams - and there are missed calls on both teams in every game.

Here's how fans IMO should approach officiating: did both teams have roughly the same amount of penalties? Did a blown call completely decide the game? If the answer to the first is yes and second is no, then fans shouldn't complain IMO.

Because there are penalties committed on every play, and with how fast players move, it's impossible for refs to be 100% accurate. I'd be super frustrated as a Saints fan though because having something happen in three games in a row is disappointing for any team.

That's sort of where I'm at.  I'm more pissed off with all the people trying to troll us Saints fans than the actual calls right now, though the 3 consecutive games of major blown calls is disturbing to say the least, regardless of how they affected the outcome.  I mean there are missed calls every game, but massive blown calls that are as egregious as these are shouldn't happen period, whether it's against my team or not, but for any team, especially mine, to have 3 games in a row where they happen... it almost makes me want to wear a tin foil hat and start looking for Aliens doing illegal sports betting and taking over/influencing officiating lol.

Hopefully the NFL will start fining/suspending these refs that make horrible calls and holding them accountable until we can get to a point of full-time referees.

[Breesus mode]

1 hour ago, Buc Ball said:

And there we have it, a well reasoned and mature argument. You can do better. 

Don’t use fallacies and trolling in your arguments then

[Breesus mode]

1 hour ago, BleedTheClock said:

It was a horrendous call by the refs.

But it didn't cost the Saints the game at all. The Saints lost because their defense is a joke and Brees was hurt. Yeah the refs should face a consequence for that, but how ridiculous to say "New Orleans was hosed" out of a victory. 

 

Referees are terrible. I'd flash their home address across the ticker any time they make a bad call. My hatred for referees runs deep.

These are the points I’ve been making in this thread my guy

[Breesus mode]

1 hour ago, btfd16 said:

 

 

I mean you can believe Gene is wrong, but it doesn't mean you're right. Pretty obvious in the second picture there is contact to the head or neck area by a forearm... Even after a change in possession, IE fumble, that is a foul. Hell, I'd even say it happened to Brees in the NFCCG on the final pick. https://operations.nfl.com/the-rules/nfl-video-rulebook/roughing-the-passer/

Yes, there were missed calls. There are missed calls on every. single. play. It happens. This is getting ridiculous.

My point is the hit happened as Goff was getting rid of the ball, and wasn’t RTP. I’d probably call hands to the face based on that though. 

[SmittyBacall]

3 hours ago, Yin-Yang said:

I don’t have a good grasp of things - haven’t been keeping up - but aren’t penalties reviewable on scoring plays? Like, the automatic reviews. Or are they only looking for whether the TD was legit?

They're just looking to confirm the touchdown as far as I know. 

[Mox]

4 hours ago, vikingsrule said:

I won’t argue that. Cook was guilty. But I didn’t think that was even reviewable as part of the scoring review. Just seems that players will have to be so much more deliberate now because anything and everything may be reviewed.

 

We are in total agreement.

[Dr LBC]

9 hours ago, lancerman said:

The NFL was always going to lose that one. Sorry. As it stands right now, most refs don’t have an incentive to be pulled from their actual well paying job to be a full time official. The NFL would need to dramatically increase their salary to be worth it and then you’d be forsaking your job to be at the whim of fans who might decide the mistake you made one week was egregious and scream for you to be fired, the reffing unions go far beyond the NFL and you wouldn’t get lower level college refs to jump. 

And the reality is, since nearly all the refs have full time jobs, a strike isn’t going to hurt them. This supplements their income. It’s not going to break it. 

They will wait out the replacement refs to  screw up enough and those refs will, once it happens in the playoffs and not the first few weeks it will be undeniable. 

Not that there’s any empirical proof being a full time ref makes you any better to begin with. 

Hence why I said a lockout.  Management simply has to make it clear that they're not interested in having part-time employees anymore.  If it went to arbitration the referees union would be required to prove that full-time employment, to include regular and ongoing training, wouldn't provide a different caliber of product.  It shifts the burden of proof.  Just because they were once or previously contracted doesn't give the union the right to hold the league hostage if the league, reasonably (and given the increased instance of human error have more profound impact on game results compared to the period during the preceding contract - again, there would have to be hard date presented to make the case), were upping their standard for quality.

I'm not making the contention that the league is going to "starve" the current officials into submission.  I'm making the contention that the league could make a righteous case that because the current officials are pre-occupied with their outside jobs, they're incapable of delivering the level of quality the league is seeking to deliver - which its consumers are clamoring for (to the point where the league was sued by a subset of its consumers over the quality of referee performance).