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GDT Week 3: Denver Broncos @ Green Bay Packers


thebestever6

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22 minutes ago, BroncosFan2010 said:

Lock should be given 8 games, that I agree with. I do believe that even if he plays well, we should target a QB in 2020. I don't think this will be an issue because I don't expect him to play well.

I do agree that there was a dearth of QB's available in 2016/17 offseasons, but we should have made a splash move. Not a R2 for Tyrod type, but a 2-3 FRP's for an established QB or top 5 pick to use on a QB. We had a special team, with special talent on both sides of the ball. All we needed was a QB to get back into contention. I know this is hindsight, but could this team have been a deep playoff squad if we offered Detroit something crazy for, say, Stafford in 2016? Would it have been worth 3-4 FRP's to stay a Super Bowl contender for another two seasons? I absolutely think it would have been. I would mortgage 5-10 years of the future to add a final piece to a special team, and in 16+17 that final piece was a QB. Our current trajectory shows that even when you don't mortgage the future for instant gratification, there is no guarantee that future you keep is worth anything. Right now it looks pretty glim.

First of all, welcome back - good to see you!  Wish it was under better circumstances (I say that at funerals, and let's face it, it's almost there for our season lol).

Really, the only decision we could have made to get QB would have been last year.   Remember that you called for Eli & Tyrod Taylor as cheap FA's - it's hindsight, and I get it (not calling you out personally), but it shows how bad our options were.   Really, spending 1.5 on QB in 2018 was our only decision we could make re: QB, although a re-do of 2017's ENTIRE draft would be awesome (and using 2017 stated CW, not just 2019 hindsight lol).  But what's done is done, either way.

As for now, in a vacuum, yes, Lock should get 8 games.  But with IR-return, he has to miss 8 games before he can even practice.  No doubt the thumb will be ready - but he needs practice reps.   Otherwise we're throwing him out there to fail completely and utterly, and that would turn ugly for 8 games. 

Instead, if we let him practice for 3 weeks, we get week 9-10 done, and a week 11 bye - he literally gets 4 full weeks of scrimmage/practice, and a 6-game trial.  6 games vs. 8 (but without 4 weeks of practice/live scrimmages), not enough a difference IMO to get too fussed about.  Plus by Week 12, with 10 games in, we likely are officially eliminated, or 1-2 games away, so easy to sell PR-wise without any doubt.

For the 2 games lost, I think it's a much smarter, and more palatable decision to let Lock take over post-bye Week 12.  We throw him out there week 9 and he outright sucks, fans will go ape**** and Elway/coaching staff then have to navigate that PR mess.   Instead, if we are at Week 12 post-bye, it gives Lock 4 full weeks of prep, and still 6 games left to play.   That would be my hands-down slam dunk call.  It's not that different than your take, but important that ppl don't freak out when he gets activated - but isn't starting right away.  Any games after the bye, however, if Lock's not starting, there's no defense and I'll be getting the pitchfork out, too lol.

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7 minutes ago, Broncofan said:

Instead, if we let him practice for 3 weeks, we get week 9-10 done, and a week 11 bye - he literally gets 4 full weeks of scrimmage/practice, and a 6-game trial

Week 10 is the bye so at minimum he should get a 7 game trial.  

The Cleveland game before the bye is debatable. As is, with the offense that's a hard no with Myles Garrett. 

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5 minutes ago, thebestever6 said:

Week 10 is the bye so at minimum he should get a 7 game trial.  

The Cleveland game before the bye is debatable. As is, with the offense that's a hard no with Miles Garrett. 

Ah, too many screens, gotcha. 

Yeah, if that game is at CLE, god.  That's unfair.  Either way, though, the point stands - I don't think we can put Lock out there right away after coming back from IR-return.  Post-bye, it's 7 games with 3 weeks of prep time.  The absolute latest ETA would be 4 games left after the LAC game.  But I'd favor anything after the bye.  It's a lost season either way.  And we absolutely need as much info on Lock as possible to know whether we are considering QB at 1.5.

 

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Really, the only decision we could have made to get QB would have been last year.   Remember that you called for Eli & Tyrod Taylor as cheap FA's - it's hindsight, and I get it (not calling you out personally), but it shows how bad our options were.   Really, spending 1.5 on QB in 2018 was our only decision we could make re: QB, although a re-do of 2017's ENTIRE draft would be awesome (and using 2017 stated CW, not just 2019 hindsight lol).  But what's done is done, either way.

I am mostly looking in hindsight to that summer after the SB win. We should have pushed all our chips in, offered all the 1st round picks necessary to get a veteran to steer the special talent we had. Its really looking back, but we could have been contending for another two years if we traded our future for someone like Stafford in the 2016 offseason. That would be worth 3-4 1st round picks IMO.

As for more recently, I still believe that we should have picked Rosen at 1.05. Even if he flames, making a move for QB with our 1st high pick in decades was, and remains, the correct move. Obviously in hindsight Lamar would have been the correct choice at 1.05. I wasn't that high on him, but man is he going to be special. His passing is already far better than I expected it to be, especially so soon in his career. That guy knows how to be the face of a franchise as well. Its hard to not imagine how reinvigorated this team would be on all levels with an exciting, charismatic and squeaky clean guy at the helm like Jackson. But me, and the rest of us, were all fools. (Albeit I think one guy here was pounding the table for him).

 

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22 minutes ago, BroncosFan2010 said:

I am mostly looking in hindsight to that summer after the SB win. We should have pushed all our chips in, offered all the 1st round picks necessary to get a veteran to steer the special talent we had. Its really looking back, but we could have been contending for another two years if we traded our future for someone like Stafford in the 2016 offseason. That would be worth 3-4 1st round picks IMO.

As for more recently, I still believe that we should have picked Rosen at 1.05. Even if he flames, making a move for QB with our 1st high pick in decades was, and remains, the correct move. Obviously in hindsight Lamar would have been the correct choice at 1.05. I wasn't that high on him, but man is he going to be special. His passing is already far better than I expected it to be, especially so soon in his career. That guy knows how to be the face of a franchise as well. Its hard to not imagine how reinvigorated this team would be on all levels with an exciting, charismatic and squeaky clean guy at the helm like Jackson. But me, and the rest of us, were all fools. (Albeit I think one guy here was pounding the table for him).

 

To be clear, 2 guys were strong advocates for Lamar - @champ11 pounded that drum (much like @Counselor has done with Baker lol) and @thebestever6 came on board.  But even they didn't advocate for Lamar at 1.5, it was always trading back.   And I will say I was convinced he'd be a great "trade back into Rd1 to get that 5th  " because I agreed with @champ11's assessment that his throwing skills were there in college, just the O was too basic to need an adjustment period.   But he was never on my "pick at 1.5 (or even 1.12 trade back)" scenario.

I still believe in Rosen, BTW.  As long as he stays upright and the MIA OL doesn't break his soul like David Carr's (and his brother Derek lol), then there's still something there to work with.    I would be the first to admit I didn't buy the risk with Josh Allen.   But either way, nothing against Chubb - but if we are set at QB - we don't even think twice on what kind of player we missed if we passed up on Chubb.   The other hindsight move (and I'm not saying I knew any more than anyone else, no one did) - if we don't get Chubb, we likely get Shaq Barrett re-signed.   There was no big market for his services - Barrett confirmed only CIN & TAM came with 1-year offers.  UGH on that one.   With the Fangio scheme neutralizing their best skills (and my belief that Chubb is a fine #2 D player, but not an elite alpha), though, yeah, it hurts if Lock isn't the answer, but what's done is done.   

If Lock's the answer, I'll be glad to say my concerns were wrong.  If he isn't, then time to hit QB hard.  At least with a top 5 pick, it won't be a reach, and there is likely franchise level talent there.

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23 minutes ago, BroncosFan2010 said:

I am mostly looking in hindsight to that summer after the SB win. We should have pushed all our chips in, offered all the 1st round picks necessary to get a veteran to steer the special talent we had. Its really looking back, but we could have been contending for another two years if we traded our future for someone like Stafford in the 2016 offseason. That would be worth 3-4 1st round picks IMO.

I go back to 2014 when Elway should have drafted Jimmy G or Carr. Then, after SB 50, he should have let Kubes walk (Gary wanted to retire) and made Wade the HC and defensive advisor (and hired Woods or Redding as DC for Wade to groom) while bringing in a whole new offensive staff.

Then, in the draft, take Chris Jones and Kenyan Drake in the first two rounds.

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25 minutes ago, BroncosFan2010 said:

I am mostly looking in hindsight to that summer after the SB win. We should have pushed all our chips in, offered all the 1st round picks necessary to get a veteran to steer the special talent we had. Its really looking back, but we could have been contending for another two years if we traded our future for someone like Stafford in the 2016 offseason. That would be worth 3-4 1st round picks IMO.

As for more recently, I still believe that we should have picked Rosen at 1.05. Even if he flames, making a move for QB with our 1st high pick in decades was, and remains, the correct move. Obviously in hindsight Lamar would have been the correct choice at 1.05. I wasn't that high on him, but man is he going to be special. His passing is already far better than I expected it to be, especially so soon in his career. That guy knows how to be the face of a franchise as well. Its hard to not imagine how reinvigorated this team would be on all levels with an exciting, charismatic and squeaky clean guy at the helm like Jackson. But me, and the rest of us, were all fools. (Albeit I think one guy here was pounding the table for him).

 

Champ and I were the only ones to like Lamar. 

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6 minutes ago, 7DnBrnc53 said:

I go back to 2014 when Elway should have drafted Jimmy G or Carr. Then, after SB 50, he should have let Kubes walk (Gary wanted to retire) and made Wade the HC and defensive advisor (and hired Woods or Redding as DC for Wade to groom) while bringing in a whole new offensive staff.

Then, in the draft, take Chris Jones and Kenyan Drake in the first two rounds.

Come on, though - after a SB win - there is ZERO chance Elway is letting the staff walk.   Zero chance. 

I put a lot of things on Elway, but that's not a reasonable scenario at all.

Chris Jones, on the other hand - yeah.  The rough part was if we passed on Lynch, the beat reporters said Chris Jones was our BPA.  UGH there too.  At least Elway's draft day 1/2 mistaken methodology appears to be a thing of the past.

 

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3 minutes ago, thebestever6 said:

I disagree lol I was on that bandwagon.  The next day after the draft at work I told everyone Baltimore got the best Value of everyone in the first round.

OK, to be fair there were 3 of you.   But @champ11 was the flag bearer, and planted it.  You & @iLikeDefense all followed along.  Happy? 

 

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1 minute ago, Broncofan said:

OK, to be fair there were 3 of you.   But @champ11 was the flag bearer, and planted it.  You & @iLikeDefense all followed along.  Happy? 

 

I'd accept that we all knew Elway wasn't going to take a 21 year old prospect at the biggest position in the NFL. 

He's not old enough (Bolles 25).

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12 minutes ago, Broncofan said:

Come on, though - after a SB win - there is ZERO chance Elway is letting the staff walk.   Zero chance. 

I put a lot of things on Elway, but that's not a reasonable scenario at all.

Chris Jones, on the other hand - yeah.  The rough part was if we passed on Lynch, the beat reporters said Chris Jones was our BPA.  UGH there too.  At least Elway's draft day 1/2 mistaken methodology appears to be a thing of the past.

 

Well, he should have let Gary retire since he wanted to, and he wasn't in the best of health. And, Wade's D was the major reason for the victory, not the offense.

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Lamar was never Elway's type. Didn't even bring dude in for a workout and I'm assuming didn't even consider him. Incompetent if that is the case, but to be expected.

Like I said at the time - he would have been our best offensive player from day 1 and given this team what it's lacking sooooo much - a dynamic playmaker. Not a soul on this team can flip a game on it's head from either side of the football. Maybe Phil and Von/Chubb. But haven't seen it much this season.

But yeah, by the time the draft rolled around and the board was clear - I was saying Lamar at the end of the first. When draft season started and it wasn't clear how high he would go I definitely was hoping he would be considered at 5. I was fully on Josh Rosen at 5 at draft time like @Broncofan and still believe in him as well. Doesn't look great, but dude has been dealt the worst hand. I was completely out on Josh Allen, but even he would make this franchise feel less lost.

QB position in the NFL has changed. We have dinosaurs running the ship 

 

 

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7 minutes ago, champ11 said:

QB position in the NFL has changed. We have dinosaurs running the ship 

It's not even that man. Okay I took some truth serum I'll admit I was out on Paxton Lynch the second I heard him speak/ bowling alley and compare himself to Cam Newton the homer in me was trying to justify it didn't see Cam at all when I watched him. 

It's the fact Elway got convinced after doing homework on Paxton, but wouldn't even do Homework on Lamar. 

How stubborn can you be? Or is he naive? Or just a quitter?

 

 

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