Getting Downright Offensive About the Steelers Defense

[Steeler Hitman]

Over the past several years there have been a number of reasons (or excuses) as to why the Steelers defense has not lived up to the defenses of the past save the Steel Rust Defense for those who remember the year that former DC Rod Rust took heat.  Over the past several years this has not been Mean Joe Green's and Jack Lambert's Steel Curtain.  It is not Greg Lloyd's and Kevin Green's Blitzburgh!  There have been no Rod (Woodson) is a god like posters for any of our defensive players.  Mathew Marczi put out an article about all of the first round talent on the Steelers defense.  See Link: https://steelersdepot.com/2019/09/defense-loaded-with-10-former-1st-round-draft-picks-time-for-them-to-play-like-it/

What has been the problem or problems? There have been a number of factors that has lead to this defense not being game ready week in and week out as well as year in and year out despite consistently drafting and in some cases over-drafting defensive talent. Correction players that play on defense.  For right now I will deal with the first two games of the 2019 season.

Week One versus our nemesis the New England Patriots. The biggest problem was our lack of offense.  The defense actually started out fairly well.  Some may very fairly argue that the Patriots just didn't get warmed up yet.  I shall explain: I actually see it as our offense did not support the defense early.  This is not an excuse, but rather a reason why.   In the past, the  Patriots have taken advantage of every opportunity given to them.  Many would argue that great teams take advantage of their opportunities. I would agree.  That is why New England is considered great (love it or hate it, but true) and the Steelers have not won a Super Bowl since 2008 (that is going on 12 years for those of us keeping score).  They have typically jumped on the Steelers and gone up early (especially in New England).  The past teaches us that three and outs and FG's don't get it done.  The Steelers offense stunk the stadium up and it actually made the defense look worst than they were. 

The defense doesn't get a pass for some of their mistakes, but I will argue that they can't make the mistakes if the are not on the field so much.  The Steelers have had problems playing together as a complete team for several years.  The offense plays well and the defense can't stop anyone. Then the defense plays well and the offense turns the ball over and stinks up the place.  This goes back to the days of Todd Haley and has continued into the Randy Fitchner era as well. Yes the defensive players are the ones being out of place, missing tackles, being a step or two behind, not getting pressure on Tom Brady and making boneheaded mental mistakes.  What baffles me is that this is not a NEW defensive system.  So why are the secondary, linebackers and defensive lineman often out of position or not on the same page?   This week, I think one word comes to mind: FATIGUE!  They were on the field too long.  Yes the time of possession does not look overwhelming, but that is somewhat deceiving.  In the first half particularly there was a point when the patriots offense was on the field and had run plays and yardage more than two to one to the Steelers. You can't win like that and definitely not against a good football team.  The offense needed to control the clock better and sustain some drives. I am not saying that they would have won, but they would have given the defense a breath and who knows what can happen when they are fresher and can perhaps force the Patriots offense into some mistakes. 

Yes the Patriots are a more disciplined defense and seem to thrive in the system that Coach BB has employed regardless of the DC.  Conversely OC Josh Daniels continued to attack and adjust. After the Steelers man slowed the Patriots, they began running picks.  The defense did not adjust and it kept the Patriots offense on the field, flipped field position and methodically began to tear down and wear down the Steelers defensive players.  The Steelers offense lacked identity and purpose week one.  They started running Connors well early, but abandoned it early.  The passing game or lack-thereof got the Steelers offense off the field. Couple that with our players inability to make a defender miss on one on one encounters, and you have a 33-3 ugly blow-out loss and a lot of people questioning how good or bad this team really is compared to the World Champs. Very humbling loss across the board: out-played, out-coached on both sides of the ball, out-performed, out-hit, out-tackled and better success and execution on both sides! Yuck!!! It all started with the fact that our offense did diddly-poo all game.

Week Two: The Seattle Seahawks: This is what started the defenses slide.  A missed call by an offical, a bad special teams scheme and play and another opportunity for a good QB and solid football team leads to a TD instead of a FG or re-kick!  This was a four point swing and momentum changer as the Steelers were tied at 7-7 instead of being up 7 - 3 or maybe even 7-0.  They lost by two points 28-26.

This photo says it all! Always a step behind.  Is it fatigue, coverage/scheme, or we just can't execute the defense?

 

the Steelers defense came out like gang busters week two in typical Mike Tomlin fashion after a bad loss.  They were primed to blow the Seahawks away early. Seattle was playing on the left coast, at a much earlier time and going against a hungry team longing for its first win in a home opener. The perfect storm for a win or so we thought. The Steelers defense will have to shoulder the blame for not being able to stop Russell Wilson and company after getting them in a third and 16 late in the game. In what is unfortunately becoming Steelers fashion, they couldn't stop Seattle's offense late. This game was eerily similar to last year's Chargers game in some aspects.  Mental mistakes, giving extra opportunities, missed calls by officials and the offense disappearing all led to another home loss.

Early on the Steelers defense was dominating!  I know that sounds like a contradiction of terms (dominance and Steelers defense)   Now, instead of the offense following the lead and wearing down the Seahawks keeping Russell Wilson and company off the field; they continued to stumble around without an identity.  The lack of consistent movement by the Steelers offense and self inflicted errors allowed Seattle to stay in the game.   Seattle then took control and the Steelers defense again began to wear down, grow tired, make mistakes and just get beat outright.  Something that was also disturbing is the talk that the communication is not there on defense. I get that Mark Baron is new and Bush is a rookie. I get that Vince Williams went down. However, a lot of these guys have been playing for a few years together. WTH!!! If the defense is that dang complicated, simplify it, so these athletes can play football and not have to think so much. Complicated defenses are great for football savants.  For most players, they want to be able to flow to the ball. I see the OG pulling,as an ILB, I am typically running /aiming/attacking the area he is vacating (sounds better than saying his rear, but you get me) because the ball is usually coming there.

I have heard reports that five and six players on defense have not known where they are supposed to be or know their assignments.  That is half of your defense. Throw in fatigue  because they are now converting first downs and we are tipping passes into their defenders hands and you have a close game, but ugly loss. Playing four quarters of football requires all three phases to play together, which for some strange reason rarely happens with a team as talented as the Steelers. So why?  I think a lot has to do with the offense making the defense have to be defensive about its play. Thoughts?

Edited September 19, 2019 by Steeler Hitman
Correction

[skywlker32]

I think Butler is some of the source of the issues because of the communication issues. He is either doing a poor job of preparing the defense for the game or the system is too complicated. If it were just 1 or 2 players that were having communication issues, you could point to them as being the issue(s), but there seems to be communication issues everywhere.

There is also just that the defense has a decent amount of turnover this year. I think some of the issues can be sorted out with some consistency at the playcaller. Bush at this point should just be thrown in there as a near every down player and the main playcaller of the team. They seem to want to ease him in, but he will have a bit of a learning curve no matter what as far as reading the offenses goes. Minkah should help a decent bit cleaning up the DB play if he is the player I think he is.

We honestly have some really good talent at all levels of the defense now, but we need the players to be in a place to make the plays.

Base Defense:

Heyward - Hargrave - Tuitt

Watt - Barron - Bush - Dupree

Haden -                      - Nelson

Fitspatrick (FS) - Edmunds (SS)

That looks good on paper. Then you run a 3-3-5 Nickel with Dupree coming off the field and Hilton coming on the field. You also have the option of (in the future once Fitzpatrick is more comfortable) to kick Fitz down to NCB and bring in Kelly at FS or Davis once he is back.

The talent is there, but we could also use a gamechanger type on defense to take it to the next level. Bush could be that guy, but we will see.

[jebrick]

You did not have an all of the above after the defensive players but before the other teams are tough.

Communication is killing the secondary.  We HOPE that Fitzpatrick can solve it.

Why is communication a problem in coverage?  Looks at the coaches

Edmunds is a dunce at times in coverage. Bush and Barron are learning the defense.  Add Fitzpatrick to that list.

[MOSteelers56]

I think our offense is partly to blame for the defense and has been for the last couple of years. It seems like the defense is on fire and the offense can never capitalize. That has to be pretty disheartening for the defense. Continuing to force punts and FG, even when tasked with short fields. Then having the offense come out and go three and out. I think the secondary needs to work on their communication, and it's been said a lot in here already but that's probably on the coaches. Bush is young and learning. Covering in the middle of the field is hard in the modern NFL, but he'll figure it out. I think we will see a defense firing on all cylinders by the end of the year. I just hope the offense can keep up.

[43M]

Talent and coaching.

Cant pick one.

We lack talent and some of the talent we do have isnt being used right.

This has been an issue for years.  Time to start over.  It's time. 

[3rivers]

blame talent, coaching then the offence in that order.  Of course, the FO would be first, but it wasn't an option.   This should be a make or break year for butler though, if they keep having breakdowns and failing , then it's time to say good - bye. Get players that suit the scheme or how about adjusting the scheme for the players they have? That would make sense.

[Money]

It's not days of the 3-4 defense where you can say ohhh man this is just some rocket science. It's so complicated.   

Every team rushes four. Every team drops 5, 6, 7 in coverage. Pick a coverage. How you cover should be dependent on the offensive formation every single play. Meaning you should adapt to the environment you face. You don't blitz from the blind side when it looks like a screen right. You don't send six when he's got five wide. You call it off.

The defense needs to be able to change pre-snap and post-snap. The defender needs to call the play at the line depending on what he sees. This is what Troy did. But he did it as an individual based on what he saw. 

Bottom line. Bush needs to play chess. Brady comes out spread city. What you gonna do?

 

The coaching staff is a complete joke and they don't have the personnel. Tomlin is the court jester. Obviously.

 

[warfelg]

18 hours ago, jebrick said:

You did not have an all of the above after the defensive players but before the other teams are tough.

I was going to come in and say that:

~ We know (because it's been reported) that Tomlin is involved in defensive game planning.  In all honesty I think that some of the game planning is good, and the execution sucks.  But some of the game plan elements make me scratch my head, like Barron on the NE running backs, then playing too much McCullers against Seattle.

~ Butler is a horrific play caller.  Just absolutely horrific.  No feel for the game.  His entire career he's run a NCB blitz right after a big pickup.  His 2 DL nickel package is the exact same with the same 3 plays.  Heck, I don't even credit him with the introduction of stunts.  That's Tampa-2 101 defense.

~ Steelers Offense:  I preach balance, balance, balance.  Over, and Over, and Over, and Over.  Even when you look at some of the best offenses (NE, NO w/ Brees, KC, LAR) they can be quick strike offenses; but at their core they are very balanced offenses that can methodically move the ball down the field.  We're 3-and-out or Quick-Strike.  That's where I'm hoping Mason kinda balances.  I've grown extremely tired of 7 yard run on 1st down; incomplete deep on 2nd down; PA incomplete deep on 3rd down.  What I'm hoping we see with Mason is 6 yard run on 1st down; 2 yard run on 2nd down; high percentage pass on 3rd down.  Mix in the PA shots on 2nd down here and there and you are cooking with kerosene.

~ The players.  Yes defensively we have plenty of problems.  For all of Cam and Stephon's many many upsides, they are not great 2-gapping 3-4 DE's that can keep lanes clean for the LB's.  There is a gif floating around from the Seattle game where Tuitt was lined up at 5-tech.  Supposed to take the OG and OT on in blocks.  The G got an arm chop on Tuitt, engaged, took Tuitt out of the play without the OT getting a hand on him, so the OT took out Bush easily.  That left the TE&FB to double up Watt and now you go a 8 yard gain.  Secondary wise, Edmunds, Davis, and Kelley are all aggressive body players, not guys that play the ball.  Haden and Nelson are great man players, and have been asked to play zone quite a lot here.  Add in that all our corners beyond that have major questions: Is Burns worth anything?  Can Sutton keep up foot speed wise?  Does Mike Hilton know he's not a LBer?

~ And I'm going to add an option that wasn't on here:  The GM.  Lets go back a little, just even 8 years:

2011 - Heyward early, but the Curtis Brown, Cortez Allen, and Chris Carter in rounds 3-4-5.  None of them even played more than 1 season as a backup.

2012 - Sean Spence had extenuating circumstances, but then Alameda Ta'amu was cut within 6 games. (BTW, we drafted Mike Adams because he drove to Pittsburgh to plead his case.  Next 4 defensive picks?  Lavonte David, Vinny Curry, Casey Hayward, Trumaine Johnson).

2013 - Jarvis Jones....yuck, but then we drafted Shamarko Thomas (4) and Terry Hawthorne (5).  Again one never played, and the other barley played.

2014 - Ryan Shazier and Tuitt in RD 1 & 2.  I'll give a pass on Shazier as you can't really anticipate that.  But then Shaquille Richardson (who never played in RD 5) and Jordan Zumwalt (who didn't make it past PS).

2015 - Really think of this one:: Dupree (1), Golson (2), Grant (4). That's your defensive picks in that top of that draft.  A bust (again at OLB), and 2 guys who gave you a total of 3 games.  We were weak at DB that year, and looking 5 picks later.....Byron Jones.  Bet he would be nice to have.  10 picks later...NT Malcom Brown, one of the best there.  RD 2 had some decent rotational players soon after: Markus Golden, Quinten Rollins.  Round 4, right after Grant was Za'Darius Smith, then 3 picks was Kwon Alexander (LB was becoming an issue at this time).

2016 - You get 1 good player out of your top 4 picks.  1 damn player.  Burns (1), Davis (2), Hargrave (3), Hawkins (4).  2 picks after Burns was Kenny Clark, one of the best NT's.  9 picks later Jaylon Smith (again LB was a need).  Xavier Howard was the next CB taken.  Then you got Sean Davis.  Next two S's taken were Vonn Bell and Kevin Byard.  Next pass rusher was Yannick Ngakoue (who I loved).

2017 - I think there's only really 1 top spot to nitpick here - Cam Sutton. Eddie Jackson wasn't picked much longer after.

So if your a coaching staff, in a 7 draft span on defense, 10 players never played a snap, another 5 gave you very little.  7 years, 15 wasted picks.  

[VigilantZombie]

I know I've said it's not just coaches it's the talent, but at what point does that excuse wear out?

We have 12 players on defense drafted in the first three rounds not including Sean Davis who is on IR.

[warfelg]

3 minutes ago, wwhickok said:

I know I've said it's not just coaches it's the talent, but at what point does that excuse wear out?

We have 12 players on defense drafted in the first three rounds not including Sean Davis who is on IR.

Talent reason never runs out.  Just because you were drafted in the 1st doesn't mean you are talented.

[VigilantZombie]

21 minutes ago, warfelg said:

Talent reason never runs out.  Just because you were drafted in the 1st doesn't mean you are talented.

 I agree with that except that when you look at the players that we are talking about most of them are talented there is a few exceptions

[jebrick]

You can't project how players will turn out.  They take some gambles.  I think a lot of this is on the scouts.  I really do not think they know what they are looking for in a CB.  The knew what they wanted in a 5-tech 2 gap DE but that is not what they are asking their DE's to do now.  The OLB in the 3-4 is a rare animal.  Especially for what the Steelers want them to do.  Long gone is the time when the Steelers could wait until the 3rd round to draft a Joey Porter type player.

[Steeler Hitman]

20 hours ago, skywlker32 said:

I think Butler is some of the source of the issues because of the communication issues.

The talent is there, but we could also use a game-changer type on defense to take it to the next level. Bush could be that guy, but we will see.

I will agree with your observation here as well.  Many of our players have played together at least a year.  You have film study, OTA's, practice, walk-throughs, training camp and pre-season games.  Many of our defenders actually played and got game reps in the preseason in three or four games.  There is definitely a mental aspect of the game where you have to have some creativity and complexity.  However, this is still football.  Why can't we get it and other teams like the Ravens and Pats can change personnel and still maintain a solid/strong defensive tradition?  To your point, that is on the DC Keith Butler.  He was supossed to simplify things from the former mad scientist genius we had in **** LeBeau.

I think we are all hoping that Bush and Fitzpatrick can be those game changer players that the defense needs as well.

19 hours ago, jebrick said:

Communication is killing the secondary.  We HOPE that Fitzpatrick can solve it.

Why is communication a problem in coverage?  Looks at the coaches

Edmunds is a dunce at times in coverage. Bush and Barron are learning the defense.  Add Fitzpatrick to that list.

Understand this as well and it falls on the DC Butler and I will add that they brought in additional coaches to "help" coach the players up skill wise and help them to better grasp the defense.  Edmunds is a tremendous athlete with exceptional speed and quickness.  Why slow him down and have him overthinking? The long pass in the Patriots game that was completed to Josh Gordan was a play that I believe Edmonds may have been able to pick off had he played the ball instead of doing an old Lee Flowers (plaster the WR after he makes a 30+ yard catch).  We saw some of the same things with Davis as well last year.  They have the thoroughbreds that can run: Bush, Baron, Watt, Bud, Edmunds, Nelson, and now Minkah.  That is a lot of pure speed and raw talent on defense.

16 hours ago, MOSteelers56 said:

I think our offense is partly to blame for the defense and has been for the last couple of years.

This has been my perceptions of 2019. My question was "MAINLY for 2019 thus far."  Ultimately, the DC, position coaches and defensive players themselves are responsible. The offense has done little to help keep the defense on the sideline and at least well rested in 2019. TOP stat can be somewhat misleading, but early in both games our offense did very little and kept the defense on the field and eventually they began to wear down in the second and third quarts in particular of both games. Some had to do with halftime adjustments as both NE and Seattle controlled the third quarter of both games. Offensive wins are not always scoring, it is also wearing the opposing defense down and thus causing them to make mental mistakes or to get beat physically through fatigue. 

15 hours ago, FourThreeMafia said:

Talent and coaching. Cant pick one.

I disagree with the talent aspect on defense. 

Heyward, Hargraves and Tuitt DL

Watt, Baron, Bush, Bud LB

Hayden, Nelson, Davis/Minkah, Edmunds DB's

I know the Steelers are not in base a lot so add Hilton, Sutton as Nickel CB's, and Vince Williams as a b/u ILB. That is talent and decent depth. I will concede that Chikello and Dirty Red are more special teams and Kelly is essentially a rookie at FS. You have Ola who needs to be on the field more, especially if you are not getting a consistent rush from the outside from Bud. My question is what could Bellichek, Harbaugh. 

13 hours ago, 3rivers said:

Blame talent, coaching then the offense in that order.  Of course, the FO would be first, but it wasn't an option.   This should be a make or break year for Butler though, if they keep having breakdowns and failing , then it's time to say good - bye. Get players that suit the scheme or how about adjusting the scheme for the players they have? That would make sense.

Hard for me to support the lack of talent theory.  The defense has all the #1 and #2 draft choices.

40 minutes ago, warfelg said:

I was going to come in and say that:

~ We know (because it's been reported) that Tomlin is involved in defensive game planning.  In all honesty I think that some of the game planning is good, and the execution sucks.  But some of the game plan elements make me scratch my head, like Barron on the NE running backs, then playing too much McCullers against Seattle.

I agree that "some" of the game planning is good, but why does the execution suck?  Baron is a former SS who can run. I don't think there are ANY ILB's in the league who can stay with a shifty (although not extremely fast) RB like White or even Lev Bell.  Those are two of the better receiving RB's in the entire NFL. You put a CB or Safety on them and the team will try to cram the ball down your throat.  I even will defend the McCullers decision here (not the ST skinny gap/zone decision).  Big Dan is 6'8 and a gracious 350 lbs.  He should be virtually immovable.  He may not have strength and leverage like a Danny Shelton or Vita Vea, but he is a load to move. Against a smash-mouth team like Seattle, I understand Dan and even Vince (had he stayed healthy) playing more. They beat the match-ups at times and we didn't get pressure or impact from another player to help out on some plays.

~ Butler is a horrific play caller.  Just absolutely horrific.  No feel for the game.  His entire career he's run a NCB blitz right after a big pickup.  His 2 DL nickel package is the exact same with the same 3 plays.  Heck, I don't even credit him with the introduction of stunts.  That's Tampa-2 101 defense.

I can't argue or defend him here.  Brutally honest, but true. He was an exceptional LB coach and is without a doubt a bright guy. I don't understand why it is not translating to results on the field. I don't buy the "he doesn't have defensive talent to work with" line because other solid defensive teams like  NE, Balt, and Philly do it drafting low and winning each year and often don't have as many #1 or premium picks on defense.

~ Steelers Offense:  I preach balance, balance, balance.  Over, and Over, and Over, and Over.  Even when you look at some of the best offenses (NE, NO w/ Brees, KC, LAR) they can be quick strike offenses; but at their core they are very balanced offenses that can methodically move the ball down the field.  We're 3-and-out or Quick-Strike.  That's where I'm hoping Mason kinda balances.  I've grown extremely tired of 7 yard run on 1st down; incomplete deep on 2nd down; PA incomplete deep on 3rd down.  What I'm hoping we see with Mason is 6 yard run on 1st down; 2 yard run on 2nd down; high percentage pass on 3rd down.  Mix in the PA shots on 2nd down here and there and you are cooking with kerosene.

Agree 100%. Sometimes the best defense is an offense that keeps them off the field. Eat up the clock and wear them down.

~ The players.  Yes defensively we have plenty of problems.  For all of Cam and Stephon's many many upsides, they are not great 2-gapping 3-4 DE's that can keep lanes clean for the LB's.  There is a gif floating around from the Seattle game where Tuitt was lined up at 5-tech.  Supposed to take the OG and OT on in blocks.  The G got an arm chop on Tuitt, engaged, took Tuitt out of the play without the OT getting a hand on him, so the OT took out Bush easily.  That left the TE&FB to double up Watt and now you go a 8 yard gain.  Secondary wise, Edmunds, Davis, and Kelley are all aggressive body players, not guys that play the ball.  Haden and Nelson are great man players, and have been asked to play zone quite a lot here.  Add in that all our corners beyond that have major questions: Is Burns worth anything?  Can Sutton keep up foot speed wise?  Does Mike Hilton know he's not a LBer?

No argument with this statement and I amen the bold!

~ And I'm going to add an option that wasn't on here:  The GM.  Lets go back a little, just even 8 years:

2011 - Heyward early, but the Curtis Brown, Cortez Allen, and Chris Carter in rounds 3-4-5.  None of them even played more than 1 season as a backup.

2012 - Sean Spence had extenuating circumstances, but then Alameda Ta'amu was cut within 6 games. (BTW, we drafted Mike Adams because he drove to Pittsburgh to plead his case.  Next 4 defensive picks?  Lavonte David, Vinny Curry, Casey Hayward, Trumaine Johnson).

2013 - Jarvis Jones....yuck, but then we drafted Shamarko Thomas (4) and Terry Hawthorne (5).  Again one never played, and the other barley played.

2014 - Ryan Shazier and Tuitt in RD 1 & 2.  I'll give a pass on Shazier as you can't really anticipate that.  But then Shaquille Richardson (who never played in RD 5) and Jordan Zumwalt (who didn't make it past PS).

2015 - Really think of this one:: Dupree (1), Golson (2), Grant (4). That's your defensive picks in that top of that draft.  A bust (again at OLB), and 2 guys who gave you a total of 3 games.  We were weak at DB that year, and looking 5 picks later.....Byron Jones.  Bet he would be nice to have.  10 picks later...NT Malcom Brown, one of the best there.  RD 2 had some decent rotational players soon after: Markus Golden, Quinten Rollins.  Round 4, right after Grant was Za'Darius Smith, then 3 picks was Kwon Alexander (LB was becoming an issue at this time).

2016 - You get 1 good player out of your top 4 picks.  1 damn player.  Burns (1), Davis (2), Hargrave (3), Hawkins (4).  2 picks after Burns was Kenny Clark, one of the best NT's.  9 picks later Jaylon Smith (again LB was a need).  Xavier Howard was the next CB taken.  Then you got Sean Davis.  Next two S's taken were Vonn Bell and Kevin Byard.  Next pass rusher was Yannick Ngakoue (who I loved).

2017 - I think there's only really 1 top spot to nitpick here - Cam Sutton. Eddie Jackson wasn't picked much longer after.

So if your a coaching staff, in a 7 draft span on defense, 10 players never played a snap, another 5 gave you very little.  7 years, 15 wasted picks.  

I did not agree with most of what the Steelers have been doing draft wise. Not a lot of argument or defending of Mr. Colbert as he has some lumps to take as well. However, we try to act like talent evaluations are easy. It is an art and not an exact science. Even picking #1 or #2, you can blow it. Tim Couch, Ryan Leaf and Akili Smith, etc., etc., etc.

I think teams try to make logical/reasonable picks. Some teams like Seattle, like who they like and will over-draft with players like OLB/DE B. Brvan and RB R. Penny. I still go back to cutting CB Dave Brown, passing on Dan Marino and Jevon Kearse.  Everyone blows it. I thought Kordell was the next Brett Farvre. As much as we like to think we are experts, there is no way to tell until they play. P.S. I loved Edmunds as a prospect, but rather in the third round.  I would have preferred they take Mason Rudolph in round one or trade out completely which was my #1 option.  I didn't grade Jessie Bates III as a first round prospect, but figured he wouldn't have been there round two.  I also like ILB Fred  Warner.  They could have traded down added a second  or third and still had Rudolph, Bates III, Washington, Edmunds and Warner. I have completely blown it as well.

2 minutes ago, warfelg said:

Talent reason never runs out.  Just because you were drafted in the 1st doesn't mean you are talented.

I agree in some cases with some players drafted. Jarvis Jones great case for your argument. I would even say Edmunds who was over-drafted in my opinion and even Artie Burns (consolation prize in the surprise Bengals William Jackson pick).    Properly using players and getting production from Dupree, Watt, Hargraves, Heyward, Tuitt, Haden, Davis, Bush, Baron, and even Edmunds. I can't say lack of talent.  Good coaches get the most out of their players and elevate great talent into great players.  That has not happened a lot here lately.  Example: If Watt can rush best, why have him drop in coverage? If Bud is a better DE playing out wide, why not use his talents rushing as a wide 9 type DE? That is not using your talent to its full ability in my humble opinion. 

[warfelg]

@Steeler Hitman I’ll reply more in depth after my round of golf, but talent and physical skills are being used interchangeably. Just based on physical ability Dupree is as talented as Watt. But in actuality he’s not close. On physical ability you would say JuJu isn’t talented (not particularly fast, not particularly strong, or explosive) but he’s also more talented than most WRs. 

[skywlker32]

17 minutes ago, warfelg said:

@Steeler Hitman I’ll reply more in depth after my round of golf, but talent and physical skills are being used interchangeably. Just based on physical ability Dupree is as talented as Watt. But in actuality he’s not close. On physical ability you would say JuJu isn’t talented (not particularly fast, not particularly strong, or explosive) but he’s also more talented than most WRs. 

Dupree is probably the exception though on our defense as a guy with the physical skills, but doesn't fill the role we need. Our DL is very good, but lacks an elite pass rusher (as do most teams). Our LBs aside from Dupree are very good once Bush and Barron are comfortable. The DBs look much better with Fitz in there (Haden and Nelson are solid to very good, Edmunds is coming along, Fitz will likely be an upgrade at FS even if Davis were healthy and we have a number of role players).

There's definitely talent there even with Dupree being a weak spot (less so in run defense I believe).