What do we go in the 2020 draft?

[French Fan]

15 minutes ago, thebestever6 said:

@French Fan why are we going back to 2010 for franchise qbs? I'm going back to 2013 for Generational defenses?

Asset building is what I'll preach picks in (2020-2021) / Direction I don't want Elway picking the next QB if Lock ain't it not a gm on the Hot seat

If I go back to 2015 for franchise qbs 5 drafts plenty for the evolving  NFL, top 10 or 11 and look at the numbers it's not too bad. ( John Fox led Bears were desperate), ( Titans had a desperate Coach Mularky, Rusten Webster gm)

Winston was a miss can't fault the bucs.

(18 Jets can't fault them for the trade just don't think they have close to the roster to contend with Darnold on rookie deal desperate GM at the time), 

Browns - Sashi built that thing Dorsey got the credit. I could care less whether Baker is it or not he might be though.

Cardinals- desperate gm sucks at roster building makes Elway look ok) not that Rosen was a poor selection just no direction. 

Buffalo- they have a plan I like their GM.

The Philly/ Colts / Buffalo Model to start the rebuild is our best shot to rebuild quickly. 

If you decide you have to have a qb in the next two years like Buffalo did you'll have the pick, or the extra resources to go get him.

Unload what you have for assets picks in the draft and future drafts, Von Miller, Chris Harris.

Get assets, unload players, 

Theres been two generational defenses since 2013 Seattle, 2015 Denver. 

Buffalo is getting there but they have a guy on a rookie deal.

You say " It's statistically harder to build one of those defenses in todays NFL than it is to find a franchise QB in the top 10."

and i say "Look at the 1st and 2nd round QB in the last 10 draft !!! "

It's NOT more harder to build a defense than draft a QB !

You can rebuild with the defense , the offense , the QB..........none will be easy !!! But start with a QB when you have draft a QB just the year before is an error ! Except if you dont want Lock but your opinion is distorted

[thebestever6]

15 minutes ago, French Fan said:

Except if you dont want Lock but your opinion is distorted

It may be as most of this fan base is after this losing run we have been on.

People killed Dave Gettleman and he's a dinosaur in so many ways. He was on the hot seat by the fans and the media.

Not by the front office after only being hired in 2018. He built up assets and took a swing ballsy but you got to respect it. I can't believe I'm defending Dave Gettleman. 

Built up assets for (2020 2021), Give Lock an audition, Get a GM  or develop one that can be ballsy and isn't on the Hotseat by 80% of Broncos country.

If Lock is the answer you have the assets you aquire in 2020-2021 to build the team. 

Edited September 25, 2019 by thebestever6

[French Fan]

15 minutes ago, thebestever6 said:

It may be as most of this fan base is after this losing run we have been on.

People killed Dave Gettleman and he's a dinosaur in so many ways. He was on the hot seat by the fans and the media.

Not by the front office after only being hired in 2018. He built up assets and took a swing ballsy but you got to respect it. I can't believe I'm defending Dave Gettleman. 

Built up assets for (2020 2021), Give Lock an audition, Get a GM  or develop one that can be ballsy and isn't on the Hotseat by 80% of Broncos country.

 

Even after SB 50 , John Elway's head was cut by some fans. Giants , Bills and even Dolphins rebuild differently with some success.

The only exception is ...the Browns always rebuild this team is complete garbage. Manziel , Mayfield , Beckam......they signed some good newspapers sellers !!!!!

I'm frustrated by Vic Fangio and his defense. We have the players but the schemes seems bad. Flacco is a better QB than Siemian/Osweiler/Keenum . Yes he makes a mistake but he is a solid starter who can shine. I want to see what Lock can makes at this level. He have a tools but the intangibles are intangibles and this is what separate the All Pro and the Journeyman !

Edited September 25, 2019 by French Fan

[thebestever6]

Completely understand that @French Fan

Do I trust Elway to build a team ? No

Do I trust Elway to pick the next qb if Lock fails? No

Do I trust Elway to get assets for the future when his seat is warm been here  9 years?( trade Von Miller, Harris, whatever)? No

- Put him in an advisory role and attempt to find the next guy. All I'm saying. 

 

Edited September 25, 2019 by thebestever6

[French Fan]

2 minutes ago, thebestever6 said:

Completely understand that @French Fan

Do I trust Elway to build a team ? No

Do I trust Elway to pick the next qb if Lock fails? No

Do I trust Elway to get assets for the future when his seat is warm been here  9 years?( trade Von Miller, Harris, whatever)? No

- Put him in an advisory role and attempt to find the next guy.

 

Do I trust Elway to build a team ? Yes. He built an great offense after sgned Manning. He built a defense after SB48 disaster to win SB 50.

Do I trust Elway to pick the next qb if Lock fails? No. No because he was a monster QB and he search his clone. But i hope Lock will be a Star.

Do I trust Elway to get assets for the future when his seat is warm been here  9 years?( trade Von Miller, Harris, whatever)? If we are 2-6 at the tradeline i think he will trade Miller and Harris. At 3-5 no.....this is here he will be a mistake. 3 wins at mid season we have no chance to reach the playoff. But at 0-3 this is Fangio faults (and Scangarello) not Elway. Rich adjust his plan at GreenBay i want to see at MileHigh against Jaguars . But Fangio defense his atrocius. 0 Sacks 0 TO 2 QB Hits.............

Put him in an advisory role and attempt to find the next guy ? He wins 2 SB lose 3 on the field , win 1 and lose another in the stands. Who can say i am better ? None. 

I respect John Elway he will not be a GM if he thinks he cannot improve. At this moment he will retired.

[thebestever6]

38 minutes ago, French Fan said:

Do I trust Elway to build a team ? Yes. He built an great offense after sgned Manning. He built a defense after SB48 disaster to win SB 50.

Knowshon, Decker, D.T were all drafted under Mac, Xanders Orange Julius. 

Wolfe, Harris, Malik Jackson found while Xanders was still here.

38 minutes ago, French Fan said:

I respect John Elway he will not be a GM if he thinks he cannot improve. At this moment he will retired

I respect him too and that Savvy used car dealership attitude that landed us Manning, Talib, Ware, Ward. They were the crowning jewels to a championship team.

- I think this organization has to stop being so damn cheap and if they aren't grooming a personnel guy to take over, find one around the NFL. 

Why react all the time why not prepare? The best organizations prepare I know that.

Ravens, second best ran team in the NFL imo.Newsome retires takes a different role, Decosta steps in.

Edited September 25, 2019 by thebestever6

[Broncofan]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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34 minutes ago, French Fan said:

 

Do I trust Elway to get assets for the future when his seat is warm been here  9 years?( trade Von Miller, Harris, whatever)? If we are 2-6 at the tradeline i think he will trade Miller and Harris. At 3-5 no.....this is here he will be a mistake. 3 wins at mid season we have no chance to reach the playoff. But at 0-3 this is Fangio faults (and Scangarello) not Elway. Rich adjust his plan at GreenBay i want to see at MileHigh against Jaguars . But Fangio defense his atrocius. 0 Sacks 0 TO 2 QB Hits.............

 

Here's the problem with that premise - teams that decide to rebuild halfway through the season usually have committed cap resources to win now, and also lost value in trade by waiting until the deadline for rental guys, as half a season doesn't get nearly as much as a full season, especially if it's an elite player like CHJ or Von.  Even more so for CHJ who we know is gone at year's end.    That's fine the odd year - but Elway's done that each year since 2016.    And that adds up.   I could definitely understand it after 2015, we were close to keeping it together in 2016...but since 2017, it's been painfully obvious we need to embrace a 1+ season full rebuild from day 1.  The ironic part is had we done that, we'd likely have shortened the rebuild in a huge way.  Instead

I have nothing but love and respect for what Elway did in 2011-13 in rebuilding the franchise to contention and then the pinnacle - but his inability to change gears to full rebuild is going to be his downfall (along with inability to develop QB).   Restructing Von's 2018 $ to get Veldheer, Clinton McDonald & Tramaine Brock.  Trading picks for guys who get cut in TC.   Spending on 31 year old DB's that then forces a showdown with their best DB.   All in the name of win-now with teams that just don't have a prayer of legitimate contention.  I get some of this is on Ellis, but a good GM with as much tenure and security can definitely step up and say "we're in a rebuild, be patient, we'll get there".  It's telling that the players at year's end knew it was a rebuild - the last person in the org who would admit it was Elway.  And not just to the fanbase - to himself.  

Whenever Elway's tenure as GM ends, he'll rightfully be hailed as a keystone GM just as much as a keystone franchise QB, the franchise QB for our team (sorry PFM, longevity matters).   But as with most tenures, the end comes for good reasons.  Those will be his.   I hope it won't be for several years yet, but if Lock whiffs, man, it's coming.  The hot seat is firmly there for Elway, if not for 2020, 2021 at latest for his ouster if we don't show clear tangible signs we are headed towards relevance.

[thebestever6]

@Broncofan that whole thing made complete sense .Where I fault Ellis in all this is leaving it in Elways hands to focus towards a rebuild. 

Newsome and Decosta was such a smooth transition. Why can't that happen here so we aren't throwing away anymore time, resources, future. 

[BroncosFan2010]

Not sure this is on topic, but I truly believe this franchise would be heading in a totally different direction if we traded up to take Daniel Jones. I was, and am, a Jones guy and think he is going to be a clear-cut franchise QB. He had everything coming out except a Josh Allen / Pat Mahomes caliber cannon. I honestly would take him over any QB in 2018, 2019 or 2020 outside maybe Lamar Jackson. He is going to be that good IMO.

[thebestever6]

37 minutes ago, BroncosFan2010 said:

Not sure this is on topic, but I truly believe this franchise would be heading in a totally different direction if we traded up to take Daniel Jones. I was, and am, a Jones guy and think he is going to be a clear-cut franchise QB. He had everything coming out except a Josh Allen / Pat Mahomes caliber cannon. I honestly would take him over any QB in 2018, 2019 or 2020 outside maybe Lamar Jackson. He is going to be that good IMO.

Liked him as well, definitely thought he was a first round talent. 

The issue with a trade up is gutting a roster of future assets. A roster that is already lacking with current and future assets. That's the challenge. 

Is it worth doing that when you don't have the players to replenish future draft pools outside of Miller, and Harris, Sanders?

 That's the rub I'm fine with what they did if they finish it out and commit to rebuilding asap throw away (sell) this year for culture development the players who are core/culture, next year focus on the draft hit it hard trade down for picks ala colts in 2018/ If you can flip Miller for a 2020/2021 first That's your target window to go qb again at the latest if Lock looks competent.

As much as I like Daniel Jones selling the farm to get to 5 with the roster as is would of been a waste of a rookie deal. 

 

Edited September 25, 2019 by thebestever6

[MakeDenverGreatAgain]

This team has so many holes to fill, you have to see what you have in Drew Lock. I am not against taking a QB high in the draft, but missing on a top 5 QB would set this franchise back another 5+ years. We drastically need to upgrade our OL (LT, RG, and even C), ILB (Davis and Jewel aren't a starting caliber duo IMO), WR (need a true possession and slot receiver), and if CHJ walks I think CB should be addressed as well as Yiadom has continuously struggled this year.

The issue is historically over the past 6-7 seasons our inability to evaluate and acquire impact players in the draft. We've had a few gems (Risner, Vonn, Lindsay) but on the whole we're one of, if not the worst, drafting team in all of football. That makes me hesitant to part with proven players like Von Miller, who I think should be traded. 

If we end up picking in the 5-7 range, and trade Von for a late first and say a third, I would love something like this: 

1a.. Chase Young/Andrew Thomas/ Jerry Jeudy/ Grant Delpit

1b. Jalen Hurts/Ceedee Lamb/Tee Higgins/Laviska Shenault (I think he ends up falling or staying in school due to injury concerns).

I think we need at least one trench player, and one offensive weapon in the first 3 picks of this draft. It's a historic WR class, and would love to see us double up at that position.

[BroncosFan2010]

If we trade CHJ and Sanders mid season, which we should, I somewhat prefer the idea of holding Von until around draft time. He isn't a leader, but he is popular in the locker room and one of the few long tenured vets left. Moving all three of those guys during the season could lead to a Dolphins type revolt, and take our culture from simply nonexistent to actively negative.

We need to move CHJ and Sanders in tasteful ways that shows we are accommodating their wishes, while getting the best pick possible. Fire sales work in the NBA where the small roster allows a culture to turnover in one season. That dynamic simply isn't there in the NFL and doing the right thing, which is moving on from these guys, has to be met with some tact.

So, ideally we move CHJ and Sanders to playoff teams of their choice for modest compensation. I think a R3 and R5 respectively is possible. Moving them together would be even better IMO.

As for the draft, we have holes all over the roster and as I have already espoused, we need a QB more than anything. Assuming Lock bust, and we get the above picks + a FRP around the draft for Von, I like this:

1a. Andrew Thomas OT - Georgia

1b. Jalen Hurts QB - Oklahoma

** Trade up from our R2 using the CHJ R3 **

1c. Isaiah Simmons LB - Clemson

3. DeVonta Smith WR - Alabama

Get two foundational pieces on offense and a replacement for Manny + the LB needed to make this defense work. Would love to snag Laviska somehow too, but you cant get greedy.

 

[Broncofan]

33 minutes ago, BroncosFan2010 said:

If we trade CHJ and Sanders mid season, which we should, I somewhat prefer the idea of holding Von until around draft time. He isn't a leader, but he is popular in the locker room and one of the few long tenured vets left. Moving all three of those guys during the season could lead to a Dolphins type revolt, and take our culture from simply nonexistent to actively negative.

We need to move CHJ and Sanders in tasteful ways that shows we are accommodating their wishes, while getting the best pick possible. Fire sales work in the NBA where the small roster allows a culture to turnover in one season. That dynamic simply isn't there in the NFL and doing the right thing, which is moving on from these guys, has to be met with some tact.

So, ideally we move CHJ and Sanders to playoff teams of their choice for modest compensation. I think a R3 and R5 respectively is possible. Moving them together would be even better IMO.

As for the draft, we have holes all over the roster and as I have already espoused, we need a QB more than anything. Assuming Lock bust, and we get the above picks + a FRP around the draft for Von, I like this:

1a. Andrew Thomas OT - Georgia

1b. Jalen Hurts QB - Oklahoma

** Trade up from our R2 using the CHJ R3 **

1c. Isaiah Simmons LB - Clemson

3. DeVonta Smith WR - Alabama

Get two foundational pieces on offense and a replacement for Manny + the LB needed to make this defense work. Would love to snag Laviska somehow too, but you cant get greedy.

 

Thomas on tape looks like a foundational LT.  He was awesome last week, pancaked some serious competition on the ND side.   His skills profile, film and track record of success at a young age against SEC / FBS competition all are huge green flags.  I'm a big fan of that pick.   Hurts is intriguing, but I would be shocked if Elway zeroes on him.   He likes his guys big, strong-armed, classic-style, and a little on the dumb side (kidding...sorta).

Hurts has skills, but he's 6'1, 215...I think it's a totally outdated concept, but there's nothing Elway's shown so far that says he's come off that concept.

Simmons being a tweener means I doubt he goes in top 20 picks, but yes, intriguing later in Rd1 / early Rd2.

Lavishka I defer to you guys as you see him more, but agree in this draft class, you hit WR with one of your Day 1-2 picks.  You can find a Godwin/Golladay type star-in-making in this class.  

Edited September 25, 2019 by Broncofan

[AKRNA]

So, lots of folks were pumping Lock as our QBOTF at draft time and were upset when we didn't pick him at 10. Does the fact that he slid down a round eliminate him from being our QBOTF?

I've seen nothing so far to tell if he is or isn't but to bail on him this early so we can draft another QBOTF with our 1st pick next year seems a bit absurd.

It's not like college QB's come with guarantees.

[thebestever6]

24 minutes ago, BroncosFan2010 said:

I somewhat prefer the idea of holding Von until around draft time. He isn't a leader, but he is popular in the locker room and one of the few long tenured vets left.

If this happens I can see von traded with a second to the top half of the first round kinda what the Bills did with Cordy Glenn. And like a 3rd being thrown in. Coming back to Denver. 

You might not get revolt risking value.