What do we go in the 2020 draft?

[BroncoBruin]

1 hour ago, broncofan48 said:

Speaking of ILB, I’ve heard Simmons mentioned, but curious for you guys who watch NCAAFB more than I who the potential “elite” guys are?

Dylan Moses from 'Bama tore his ACL last month but I'd still easily take him over any of these guys. He has as much upside as any of Bama's LBs over the years IMO.

I like Kenneth Murray from Oklahoma too. 

[thebestever6]

My dream scenario which may sound like a nightmare to some depending on age lol! And qb in 2021 is goal if Lock is meh/ Elway isn't allowed to pick next qb

- Ellis has an epiphany 

- Von traded for a first in 2021

- we are competitive in every game but still land a top 3 pick.

- A trade down for a qb happens in which at minimum a second in 2020, and 2021 is aquired.

You'd have very good control in 2 drafts that says something power move.

[BullsandBroncos]

Hopefully a LT and Bolles is out of the league.

[Broncofan]

29 minutes ago, BullsandBroncos said:

Hopefully a LT and Bolles is out of the league.

I’ve been as vocal a critic on Bolles from the day he was picked and his play and lack of progress. But we want him to show some progress for no other reason than depth or trade value or comp pick value if we let him walk after 4 years (won’t be much if he’s so bad that we are letting him walk after 4 but every bit helps).   It doesn’t have to be personal. 

[jsthomp2007]

8 minutes ago, Broncofan said:

I’ve been as vocal a critic on Bolles from the day he was picked and his play and lack of progress. But we want him to show some progress for no other reason than depth or trade value or comp pick value if we let him walk after 4 years (won’t be much if he’s so bad that we are letting him walk after 4 but every bit helps).   It doesn’t have to be personal. 

I don't know why you wouldn't take all that aggression and athletism and make a defensive tackle.  

[BroncoBruin]

6 minutes ago, Broncofan said:

I’ve been as vocal a critic on Bolles from the day he was picked and his play and lack of progress. But we want him to show some progress for no other reason than depth or trade value or comp pick value if we let him walk after 4 years (won’t be much if he’s so bad that we are letting him walk after 4 but every bit helps).   It doesn’t have to be personal. 

Oh I think if he flops they'll get rid of him as quickly as possible and feel good about being done with it. There's too much history and too much baggage. I really don't see Bolles on this team at all next year. 

[Broncofan]

42 minutes ago, BroncoBruin said:

Oh I think if he flops they'll get rid of him as quickly as possible and feel good about being done with it. There's too much history and too much baggage. I really don't see Bolles on this team at all next year. 

Sure but even if we trade him for a day 3 pick there’s something gained.   We don’t want him out of football.  That’s all I’m saying.  Better to get some return then nothing at all if he busts out.  

Edited September 24, 2019 by Broncofan

[Wolzen]

How about drafting a LT and moving Bolles inside? He won't have to move laterally very much so it may help him?

[BroncoBruin]

6 minutes ago, Wolzen said:

How about drafting a LT and moving Bolles inside? He won't have to move laterally very much so it may help him?

Nah, his movement skills are his strength. He's pretty small and would get blown up by strong DTs.

[Broncofan]

26 minutes ago, Wolzen said:

How about drafting a LT and moving Bolles inside? He won't have to move laterally very much so it may help him?

Honestly the one hope we have is moving him to RT more than moving him inside.   His greatest assets are his athleticism, he's actually a little undersized to be a G.   It also makes the pick a bigger bust because if the only rational justification Elway had at the time in taking Bolles over Ramczyk, besides tools/ceiling over actual polished skills / being Big-10 proven / success being almost 3 years younger,  was that he wanted the LT starter set, and felt Ramczyk was RT-only (I would point out that Ramczyk has played 5-6 games at LT and been fine, but either way...).   Still, what's done is done.  

I think we'd probably give Bolles one more shot at RT if we draft a LT and move James to LT for year 1.  It would be shocking to cut Bolles next year IMO outright, at the very least see what you can get in trade, or try him at RT, where the need to reach and be off-balance (and then reach / hold  or give up sacks) goes way down.

Edited September 25, 2019 by Broncofan

[French Fan]

22 hours ago, thebestever6 said:

 

It's statistically harder to build one of those defenses in todays NFL than it is to find a franchise QB in the top 10.

Really ???

Look the last 10 Draft

2010:

1    1    Sam Bradford    QB    Oklahoma    St. Louis Rams
1    25    Tim Tebow    QB    Florida    Denver Broncos
2    48    Jimmy Clausen    QB    Notre Dame    Carolina Panthers
 

2011:

1    1    Cam Newton    QB    Auburn    Carolina Panthers
1    8    Jake Locker    QB    Washington    Tennessee Titans
1    10    Blaine Gabbert    QB    Missouri    Jacksonville Jaguars
1    12    Christian Ponder    QB    Florida State    Minnesota Vikings
2    35    Andy Dalton    QB    Texas Christian    Cincinnati Bengals
2    36    Colin Kaepernick    QB    Nevada-Reno    San Francisco 49ers
 

2012:

1    1    Andrew Luck    QB    Stanford    Indianapolis Colts
1    2    Robert Griffin    QB    Baylor    Washington Redskins
1    8    Ryan Tannehill    QB    Texas A&M    Miami Dolphins
1    22    Brandon Weeden    QB    Oklahoma State    Cleveland Browns
2    57    Brock Osweiler    QB    Arizona State    Denver Broncos

2013:

1	16	EJ Manuel	QB	Florida State	Buffalo Bills
2	39	Geno Smith	QB	West Virginia	New York Jets

 

2014:

1	3	Blake Bortles	QB	Central Florida	Jacksonville Jaguars
1	22	Johnny Manziel	QB	Texas A&M	Cleveland Browns
1	32	Teddy Bridgewater	QB	Louisville	Minnesota Vikings
2	36	Derek Carr	QB	Fresno State	Oakland Raiders
2	62	Jimmy Garoppolo	QB	Eastern Illinois	New England Patriots

 

2015:

1	1	Jameis Winston	QB	Florida State	Tampa Bay Buccaneers
1	2	Marcus Mariota	QB	Oregon	Tennessee Titans

 

2016:

1	1	Jared Goff	QB	California	Los Angeles Rams
1	2	Carson Wentz	QB	North Dakota State	Philadelphia Eagles
1	26	Paxton Lynch	QB	Memphis	Denver Broncos
2	51	Christian Hackenberg	QB	Penn State	New York Jets

 

2017:

1	2	Mitchell Trubisky	QB	North Carolina	Chicago Bears
1	10	Patrick Mahomes	QB	Texas Tech	Kansas City Chiefs
1	12	Deshaun Watson	QB	Clemson	Houston Texans
2	52	DeShone Kizer	QB	Notre Dame	Cleveland Browns

 

2018:

1	1	Baker Mayfield	QB	Oklahoma	Cleveland Browns
1	3	Sam Darnold	QB	USC	New York Jets
1	7	Josh Allen	QB	Wyoming	Buffalo Bills
1	10	Josh Rosen	QB	UCLA	Arizona Cardinals
1	32	Lamar Jackson	QB	Louisville	Baltimore Raven

 

2019:

1	1	Kyler Murray	QB	Oklahoma	Arizona Cardinals
1	6	Daniel Jones	QB	Duke	New York Giants
1	15	Dwayne Haskins	QB	Ohio State	Washington Redskins
2	42	Drew Lock	QB	Missouri	Denver Broncos

 

So ...40 QBs since 2010...1st or 2nd round !

Cam Newton / Colin Kaepernick / Jared Geoff / Carson Wentz  are the only QBs who played SB !

Players like Murray and Jackson will not be a future All Pro , QB/RB are not a good option as Mickael Vick was. 3 years and defensive schemes will stop their running ability.

To the 4 QBs who went to SB we can add Mahomes / Watson and Luck to the term of" Franchise QB"

No decision to Jones / Allen / Lock for the moment.

We have 9 of 40 who can be a long term solution , the other are not Franchise QB and or even not play in this league.

So easy to find a QB in top 5 ? 

 

Edited September 25, 2019 by French Fan

[Broncofan]

7 minutes ago, French Fan said:

Really ???

Look the last 10 Draft

2010:

1    1    Sam Bradford    QB    Oklahoma    St. Louis Rams
1    25    Tim Tebow    QB    Florida    Denver Broncos
2    48    Jimmy Clausen    QB    Notre Dame    Carolina Panthers
 

2011:

1    1    Cam Newton    QB    Auburn    Carolina Panthers
1    8    Jake Locker    QB    Washington    Tennessee Titans
1    10    Blaine Gabbert    QB    Missouri    Jacksonville Jaguars
1    12    Christian Ponder    QB    Florida State    Minnesota Vikings
2    35    Andy Dalton    QB    Texas Christian    Cincinnati Bengals
2    36    Colin Kaepernick    QB    Nevada-Reno    San Francisco 49ers
 

2012:

1    1    Andrew Luck    QB    Stanford    Indianapolis Colts
1    2    Robert Griffin    QB    Baylor    Washington Redskins
1    8    Ryan Tannehill    QB    Texas A&M    Miami Dolphins
1    22    Brandon Weeden    QB    Oklahoma State    Cleveland Browns
2    57    Brock Osweiler    QB    Arizona State    Denver Broncos

2013:

1	16	EJ Manuel	QB	Florida State	Buffalo Bills
2	39	Geno Smith	QB	West Virginia	New York Jets

 

2014:

1	3	Blake Bortles	QB	Central Florida	Jacksonville Jaguars
1	22	Johnny Manziel	QB	Texas A&M	Cleveland Browns
1	32	Teddy Bridgewater	QB	Louisville	Minnesota Vikings
2	36	Derek Carr	QB	Fresno State	Oakland Raiders
2	62	Jimmy Garoppolo	QB	Eastern Illinois	New England Patriots

 

2015:

1	1	Jameis Winston	QB	Florida State	Tampa Bay Buccaneers
1	2	Marcus Mariota	QB	Oregon	Tennessee Titans

 

2016:

1	1	Jared Goff	QB	California	Los Angeles Rams
1	2	Carson Wentz	QB	North Dakota State	Philadelphia Eagles
1	26	Paxton Lynch	QB	Memphis	Denver Broncos
2	51	Christian Hackenberg	QB	Penn State	New York Jets

 

2017:

1	2	Mitchell Trubisky	QB	North Carolina	Chicago Bears
1	10	Patrick Mahomes	QB	Texas Tech	Kansas City Chiefs
1	12	Deshaun Watson	QB	Clemson	Houston Texans
2	52	DeShone Kizer	QB	Notre Dame	Cleveland Browns

 

2018:

1	1	Baker Mayfield	QB	Oklahoma	Cleveland Browns
1	3	Sam Darnold	QB	USC	New York Jets
1	7	Josh Allen	QB	Wyoming	Buffalo Bills
1	10	Josh Rosen	QB	UCLA	Arizona Cardinals
1	32	Lamar Jackson	QB	Louisville	Baltimore Raven

 

2019:

1	1	Kyler Murray	QB	Oklahoma	Arizona Cardinals
1	6	Daniel Jones	QB	Duke	New York Giants
1	15	Dwayne Haskins	QB	Ohio State	Washington Redskins
2	42	Drew Lock	QB	Missouri	Denver Broncos

 

So ...40 QBs since 2010...1st or 2nd round !

Cam Newton / Colin Kaepernick / Jared Geoff / Carson Wentz  are the only QBs who played SB !

Players like Murray and Jackson will not be a future All Pro , QB/RB are not a good option as Mickael Vick was. 3 years and defensive schemes will stop their running ability.

To the 4 QBs who went to SB we can add Mahomes / Watson and Luck to the term of" Franchise QB"

No decision to Jones / Allen / Lock for the moment.

We have 9 of 40 who can be a long term solution , the other are not Franchise QB and or even not play in this league.

So easy to finf a QB in top 5 ? 

 

The SB is the wrong metric - you want to be a top 4-8 team, because without that, the SB chance isn't realistic.    

This has been discussed ad nauseum, but really there are 3 ways to get a championship caliber contender:

1.  Get the franchise QB - because their play can cover up for team weaknesses like no other.   And if it's on the rookie deal, it's the holy grail.  On the rookie deal, the QB doesn't even need to be a top 6-8 type player, he can be top 12-15 and it might be good enough.

2.  Have the complete team - again, a lot easier with a rookie deal QB who plays OK.    But this is the method DEN used as we know for SB50 - but it requires threading the needle, running the inside straight.

3.  Having dominant trench play on both sides of the ball and amazing coaching - the PHI SB52 formula, after Wentz went down.   

If you have a mix of the 3, all the better - it just makes the job that much easier.    We look at the teams that went to the Divisional rounds & Conference championships, we see a lot of teams with franchise QB's.    It's a wider lens, and appropriately so, because it takes away from the dominance of 1 org, and shows the path (which also includes teams that don't have the franchise QB per se <JAX 2017>, so it can be done.  It's just a lot easier to sustain over several years if you have the franchise QB - as our 2016-18 play showed (2016 being the big example, we still had a great D - but no longer generational with Malik Jackson & Trevathan gone - and a meh QB now at the helm).  

The appeal of the rookie deal starting QB is obvious - not just the hope for great play (which isn't a lock, but the rates in Rd1 are way higher than Rds 2+), but also the amazing cost control and cap flexibility.   DAL & KC went from cap hell to being true contenders with Dak & Mahomes - not so much with Dak's play, but the flexibility to make the team so good elsewhere cap-wise (going after Amari Cooper), and yes, drafting well in other areas (and obv Mahomes is a beast too lol, really covering up for a ton of flaws on that KC D last year).  It's not hard to see why teams rightfully zero in on a franchise QB...the trick is not reaching for non-franchise level talent (cough *Paxton* cough).

Edited September 25, 2019 by Broncofan

[French Fan]

7 minutes ago, Broncofan said:

The SB is the wrong metric - you want to be a top 4-8 team, because without that, the SB chance isn't realistic.    

This has been discussed ad nauseum, but really there are 3 ways to get a championship caliber contender:

1.  Get the franchise QB - because their play can cover up for team weaknesses like no other.   And if it's on the rookie deal, it's the holy grail.  On the rookie deal, the QB doesn't even need to be a top 6-8 type player, he can be top 12-15 and it might be good enough.

2.  Have the complete team - again, a lot easier with a rookie deal QB who plays OK.    But this is the method DEN used as we know for SB50 - but it requires threading the needle, running the inside straight.

3.  Having dominant trench play on both sides of the ball and amazing coaching - the PHI SB52 formula, after Wentz went down.   

If you have a mix of the 3, all the better - it just makes the job that much easier.    We look at the teams that went to the Divisional rounds & Conference championships, we see a lot of teams with franchise QB's.    It's a wider lens, and appropriately so, because it takes away from the dominance of 1 org, and shows the path (which also includes teams that don't have the franchise QB per se <JAX 2017>, so it can be done.  It's just a lot easier to sustain over several years if you have the franchise QB - as our 2016-18 play showed (2016 being the big example, we still had a great D - but no longer generational with Malik Jackson & Trevathan gone - and a meh QB now at the helm).  

I just answer to the thebestever6 who say it more easy to find a QB in the TOP10.

You can add just Tebow and Bortles for teams who went Divisional rounds & Conference championships............

But at the end......these 2 are not here for the talent but with a great defense. The reality is Defense win championship ans Offense win regular season games. This is not just a formule but the reality. I like great Offense who can score at each drive but this is not what we need to be a contender...........

Edited September 25, 2019 by French Fan

[Broncofan]

45 minutes ago, French Fan said:

I just answer to the thebestever6 who say it more easy to find a QB in the TOP10.

You can add just Tebow and Bortles for teams who went Divisional rounds & Conference championships............

But at the end......these 2 are not here for the talent but with a great defense. The reality is Defense win championship ans Offense win regular season games. This is not just a formule but the reality. I like great Offense who can score at each drive but this is not what we need to be a contender...........

Sure D matters.  Absolutely.  Generational D can overcome bad QB play.   We saw that in 2015.  But once the D isn’t generational even if the D is great it falls apart. We saw that in 2016.

The franchise QB covers up when a team isn’t complete.    That’s hard to dispute.  And when it’s the rookie deal QB getting a complete team is so much easier.  So long as he’s better than average it’s a huge plus.  There’s more than 1 way to get there but the franchise QB just makes the rest of team construction easier and even more so on the rookie wage scale.  Your post shows the fallacy of reaching for a non-franchise talent out of need, though, so it's a fair flip side to the "draft QB at all costs" argument each year.

Edited September 25, 2019 by Broncofan

[thebestever6]

54 minutes ago, Broncofan said:

Sure D matters.  Absolutely.  Generational D can overcome bad QB play.   We saw that in 2015.  But once the D isn’t generational even if the D is great it falls apart. We saw that in 2016.

@French Fan why are we going back to 2010 for franchise qbs? I'm going back to 2013 for Generational defenses?

Asset building is what I'll preach picks in (2020-2021) / Direction I don't want Elway picking the next QB if Lock ain't it not a gm on the Hot seat

If I go back to 2015 for franchise qbs 5 drafts plenty for the evolving  NFL, top 10 or 11 and look at the numbers it's not too bad. ( John Fox led Bears were desperate), ( Titans had a desperate Coach Mularky, Rusten Webster gm)

Winston was a miss can't fault the bucs.

(18 Jets can't fault them for the trade just don't think they have close to the roster to contend with Darnold on rookie deal desperate GM at the time), 

Browns - Sashi built that thing Dorsey got the credit. I could care less whether Baker is it or not he might be though.

Cardinals- desperate gm sucks at roster building makes Elway look ok) not that Rosen was a poor selection just no direction. 

Buffalo- they have a plan I like their GM.

The Philly/ Colts / Buffalo Model to start the rebuild is our best shot to rebuild quickly. 

If you decide you have to have a qb in the next two years like Buffalo did you'll have the pick, or the extra resources to go get him.

Unload what you have for assets picks in the draft and future drafts, Von Miller, Chris Harris.

Get assets, unload players, 

Theres been two generational defenses since 2013 Seattle, 2015 Denver. 

Buffalo is getting there but they have a guy on a rookie deal.

Edited September 25, 2019 by thebestever6