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Chris Harris Jr Trade?

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A pick in the 20s would be enough for me. He's the best asset you've got that doesn't fit the timeline, you need a lot of draft capital and it's hard to get picks that valuable without trading down and losing the chance to draft elite talents. You can get an elite player with your top 10 pick and still get two more starters in the back of the 1st and front of the 2nd. 

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38 minutes ago, germ-x said:

If Von can be moved for a 1st he needs to be moved.  This isn’t a team or a time to play that hard of ball.  Again, by the time this team can legitimately compete Von will be declining more than he is now.  He had a great game vs the Chargers, but they also had a terrible game plan and left him 1 vs 1 against Sam Tevi for the majority of the game. 

 

14 minutes ago, BroncoBruin said:

A pick in the 20s would be enough for me. He's the best asset you've got that doesn't fit the timeline, you need a lot of draft capital and it's hard to get picks that valuable without trading down and losing the chance to draft elite talents. You can get an elite player with your top 10 pick and still get two more starters in the back of the 1st and front of the 2nd. 

I think that's selling low personally - but regardless, if Elway doesn't have Von on the market at this stage, and he's signed through past 2021 - IMO he's not going to be budged by a 1st only from a contender.

We can argue on the merits of that decision, but when you see a team like JAX balk at 2 1sts for Jalen Ramsey, it's a given Elway is thinking that type of return for Von (I get both Ramsey and Mack are much younger, but more where Elway's is at seller price evaluation-wise).  I mean, the fact he hasn't even made calls yet on CHJ (when we know there are at least 2-3 teams dying to get a shutdown CB) shows us where his head is at.   As he seems to have addressed his blind spot for awful tools-only reach-way-too-soon Day 2 and pick-solely-for-need-Day 1, other than QB evaluation, Elway's refusal to see we need to commit to a full rebuild has to be his biggest current weakness.   So that means a 1st alone is a no-go scenario in his mind.   A 1st/2nd probably is too little in his mind (I'd be sold on that, and 1st/3rd is where my line holds). 

I think a 1st alone is too low personally, but more importantly, given where Elway is at - man, I don't see that scenario at all until the trade deadline next season, as his floor. 

Edited by Broncofan

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If @germ-x and @BroncoBruin have the sentiment that Von is more tradable than the front office is letting on then I share that same view. Someone in the building is always fielding calls on players Von's the biggest fish play some hardball is where I branch off. This is a culture building induced team right now. This is the perfect time to play hardball only way it backfires knock on wood is if something catastrophic happens. Von Miller's aren't around the NFL growing on trees.

I share the view with @Broncofan as well that a first is way too low to sell right now. Things change the closer you get to the trade deadline. Play, performance, circumstances around the league to inflate that price,deflate that price, or make it a push.

Once you get to that deadline the question becomes sell now, or sell offseason what's the plus/minus of both. Is it worth the risk of waiting 8 games to get that value? The dead money if 19 million is the biggest inhibitor of Von being traded this year from what I've read. So someone has until week 8 to make us an offer we can't refuse.

 

 

Edited by thebestever6

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I mean I’m not saying go around and just shop Von for a 1st, but I’m saying if a 1st is the best offer you take it and move on.  I don’t think it’s a situation where you get cute trying get a massive haul if the market for it isn’t there and then he’s still on a terrible football team doing nothing to move into the future. 

Further, it’s not as if keeping Von has the caveat of him being a team leader or a guy that’s going to help the culture of the team.  He’s not that guy, which is fine.

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14 minutes ago, germ-x said:

I mean I’m not saying go around and just shop Von for a 1st, but I’m saying if a 1st is the best offer you take it and move on.  I don’t think it’s a situation where you get cute trying get a massive haul if the market for it isn’t there and then he’s still on a terrible football team doing nothing to move into the future. 

Further, it’s not as if keeping Von has the caveat of him being a team leader or a guy that’s going to help the culture of the team.  He’s not that guy, which is fine.

I hear you on all the points, save for the a 1st being the best offer - if you wait until the offseason, a lot more teams have the cap space to consider making an all-in move for Von.   Right now, we take on a cap hit of 19M dead money, but keep in mind it's not 19.3M+ suddenly now - it's 11.75 added on to the 7.6 we already paid out, so we're good (given that it pretty much evens out the salary that's left).  But at 5 games paid, a team has to find 11/16 of the 17M salary left.  That reduces the buyer crowd a fair amount, even with teams who would likely try to restructure to fit him in.   Plus the whole "get the star into offseason & TC and get him fit into the scheme" issue.   It's why the midseason trades rarely give the same kind of returns as offseason trades, except where desperation occurs, or where the position doesn't require much of a scheme fit change (lockdown CB, for example, is pretty scheme-independent). 

For a position like Von's, off-season trades almost always gets a higher return - unless the contract is expiring.  Then you can make the argument that 1.5 seasons is worth more than 1.   But in this case, Von is paid at very fair market prices for a top 5 EDGE for what a team acquring him is going to be paying - 17-18M is exactly where the best EDGES/DE's are going for.   And he's paid up for 2020 & 2021, locked in.  So a team paying up for 2 years (plus the option of a franchise tag if he's still awesome), that's still going to be very attractive.  Now, if Von's play suddenly declines, or he gets hurt, then yeah, opportunity lost.  But there's nothing that actually says that - since they moved him back into the Mack role, he's been dominant again - not just vs. LAC (fair point on Tevi), but also vs. JAX.    I don't think we're going to see that change.   If it was, then I hear you, but the 4-game slump was clearly IMO a bad scheme fit & adjustment phase.    If it wasn't, I'd be there with you about selling for what you can get - but I don't think we are there with Von.   

Regardless, this talk may be moot, because Elway's barely acknowledged Harris / Sanders / Wolfe should go (which should be painfully obvious), and already taking the position that Von is the guy they will build around - so it's going to take an offer that is more than "fair" to move the needle for him.    I do think he shouldn't consider any vet as off-limits for trade, though.  No argument there.  We just differ on what's fair value and the need to deal - but no matter how we feel, seems Elway's still miles away from our perspective.  Sigh.

Edited by Broncofan

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21 hours ago, Broncofan said:

if you wait until the offseason, a lot more teams have the cap space to consider making an all-in move for Von.   

I agreed with your post except for this line.If you go on overthecap and there's a bunch of teams right now with more than enough cap room to fit a Von Miller under their cap structure. The best run organizations prepare rather than react. I think this was prepared for preseason by a large portion of the NFL.

I understand money is used for extensions as well as other moves. There's a reason articles keep popping up saying this is a year you're going to see an uncharacteristic amount of trades at the deadline. 

I believe the Superbowl is wide open this year, and Tom Brady is looking human and it's still early in the season he is 42. How big would a DeMarcus Ware type pass rush presence have been for us in 2012? I would of paid a 1st and 2nd for that. Philly is the oldest roster I believe, Colts have 43 million in cap space, Dallas is Dallas, heck I wouldn't rule out Oakland making a splash. 

https://overthecap.com/salary-cap-space/

Edited by thebestever6

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51 minutes ago, thebestever6 said:

I agreed with your post except for this line.If you go on overthecap and there's a bunch of teams right now with more than enough cap room to fit a Von Miller under their cap structure. The best run organizations prepare rather than react. I think this was prepared for preseason by a large portion of the NFL.

I understand money is used for extensions as well as other moves. There's a reason articles keep popping up saying this is a year you're going to see an uncharacteristic amount of trades at the deadline. 

I believe the Superbowl is wide open this year, and Tom Brady is looking human and it's still early in the season he is 42. How big would a DeMarcus Ware type pass rush presence have been for us in 2012? I would of paid a 1st and 2nd for that. Philly is the oldest roster I believe, Colts have 43 million in cap space, Dallas is Dallas, heck I wouldn't rule out Oakland making a splash. 

https://overthecap.com/salary-cap-space/

Absolutely, there are a lot of teams that have space - but take a closer look at the bottom 8 teams - it's the contenders that might want a pass rush edge that are going to pay up in-season.  Teams that aren't legitimately in it won't bother until the offseason.    

If you wait until the offseason, you increase the number of teams willing to pay for Von AND who can create the flexibility.   Teams like MIN, LAR and yes, NE, are hard-pressed to make it work now.    There are teams that can make it work now, absolutely - but you give the greatest amount of flexilbility to the entire list of contenders by doing it in the offseason.   Doing it now eliminates 2-3 contenders from having the same flexibility as others - and so they won't pay the same price, if it forces them to make tougher decisions than with other contenders.   

The only scenario where inseason trades yield huge returns are when bidding wars start, or a team is literally left with no other choice, and thinks that 1 guy is the difference, and it's usualy reserved for QB (Bradford & MIN, no other QB's available being exhibit A).   Von could be seen that way - but it won't be a team with anything but 2019 contention and the ability to create the space without hurting their team, that will do it.   MIN, LAR & NE are hard-pressed now to make it work - in the offseason, they can make tough decisions and go cheaper in other spots to make the roster fit.  In-season, not so much. 

Either way, this may be all moot - until Elway decides he's sellling, we aren't even getting CHJ/Wolfe/Sanders off the books.    That likely has to happen before we get to a Von trade scenario.  It's a tough statement for most casual DEN fans to hear - but we actually hope DEN loses this weekend - so Elway sees the light that it's time to sell now.  And not wait too long on the guys with expiring contracts. 

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18 minutes ago, Broncofan said:

Doing it now eliminates 2-3 contenders from having the same flexibility as others - and so they won't pay the same price, if it forces them to make tougher decisions than with other contenders.   

I could quote the whole post because of the quality content but I wont. I'm just saying this year is a weird year than in years past. I have a feeling there's going to be borderline contenders that make a push. AFC you have a 42 year old qb (uncharted territory)head lining the A list team and a Coach in Andy Reid who has a history of coming up short in the playoffs. It truly is wide open. 

Class of the NFC might be the niners that defense is legit and Jimmy G hasn't done a damn thing in the playoffs or Winston. Brees, and Rodgers are also aging. The Rams remind me of the star wars numbers Colts teams. Their D seems to be aging. Philly and older team, Dallas wants to win before they gotta pay Dak. It literally is wide open.

19 minutes ago, Broncofan said:

Von could be seen that way - but it won't be a team with anything but 2019 contention and the ability to create the space without hurting their team, that will do it.   MIN, LAR & NE are hard-pressed now to make it work - in the offseason, they can make tough decisions and go cheaper in other spots to make the roster fit.  In-season, not so much. 

I can never rule out New England in any deal would they give Tom Brady a going away present to win it all this year like the Colts did with Luck?

It is a moot point until Elway sells somebody. I'm not sure what to hope for in the Titans game because I think Elway is trying to bluff regardless this year. A win would make the bluff more believable, a loss and lets start selling asap. 

I want a result where the players don't dictate their hand because a good thing is brewing here and I'm excited much like 2011.

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Given that ARI is getting P-Pete back on Week 7 - this is not likely to be simple posturing on Elway's part, since selling now is the prime time to deal CHJ.   SMH @ Elway's stubborn refusal to see what the rest of the entire NFL world can see.   Sigh.

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Just now, Broncofan said:

Given that ARI is getting P-Pete back on Week 7 - this is not likely to be simple posturing on Elway's part, since selling now is the prime time to deal CHJ.   SMH @ Elway's stubborn refusal to see what the rest of the entire NFL world can see.   Sigh.

You had to watch the video he put his tongue in cheek when he said it. Body language my friend.

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7 minutes ago, Broncofan said:

Given that ARI is getting P-Pete back on Week 7 - this is not likely to be simple posturing on Elway's part, since selling now is the prime time to deal CHJ.   SMH @ Elway's stubborn refusal to see what the rest of the entire NFL world can see.   Sigh.

https://www.reddit.com/r/DenverBroncos/comments/dgo10z/elway_on_the_trade_deadline_you_guys_bring_all/

@Broncofan 30 second mark he puts his tongue in his cheek 

 

Edited by thebestever6

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48 minutes ago, Kenrik said:

What would you guys figure a fair deal for Sanders?

As crazy as it sounds, you're likely not getting Sanders right now.  Elway thinks the season can be salvaged.

If KC wins, then maybe he changes his tune...but we'll see.   

Regardless, it's a short week, and Sanders is dinged up with a knee issue, but he practiced today.     So he's likely playing on TNF barring setbacks.  Hopefully it's a showcase in a great (but losing) effort by the youngsters and #10 (talking long-term for us).

The issue is that unless it's a system that's very familiar, WR's take time.  Unlike a RB (assuming it's not a power/zone scheme that's almost exclusive), or shadow CB, who can adapt pretty quickly.  That, his age and expiring contract...who knows.   I think Elway would jump at a 3rd...but more likely would settle for a 4th right now...and if he waits until the trade deadline, barring a bidding war, might be stuck with a 5th (yes, Zay Jones territory - but Zay is cost-controlled, and cheap, so that factors in, despite the massive difference in actual football skills).

Edited by Broncofan

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With Peter's being traded watch a trade for Harris to the Rams he was in Wades system.  

2nd round pick will do Talib also out.

Edited by thebestever6

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3 hours ago, thebestever6 said:

With Peter's being traded watch a trade for Harris to the Rams he was in Wades system.  

2nd round pick will do Talib also out.

Give me my crow lol wow what a haukl by the rams for Ramsey Khan is magical. 

Edited by thebestever6

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