Quarterback Rankings (final regular season 2019)

[Broncofan]

FACT:  QBR hurts its argument as a valid metric when it puts Mariota anywhere in the top half, let alone the top 10.

[Hunter2_1]

4 hours ago, RandyMossIsBoss said:

Yeah I really have absolutely no idea how they are getting that rating for Mahomes. Are they being extra harsh on his mistakes or just not giving him enough credit? Their write up mentions too many "negative throws" https://www.pff.com/news/pro-pff-rankings-nfl-quarterback-rankings-following-week-3. Their system, which mixes eye test with a number on a scale, is also especially messy for players like Mahomes whose highlight plays likely should break the scale.

It's PFF though so not exactly surprising.

They penalize screen passes. Might be that

[SBLIII]

Fumbles. I would be shocked if Mahomes isn’t top 3 in a couple of weeks 

[Bearerofnews]

Mahomes makes amazing plays.. but very overrated and easy throws. Big difference between a play and a throw.  Thats why he is lower on PFF. They are assessing for tangibles that other systems dont account for.

If ya think im a hater, a troll and generally a moron. I ask you to do something. Next KC game, get a notepad and pen. Checkmark everytime Mahomes completes a pass in tight coverage and a X everytime to a relatively open target. See what the overall percentage is at the end of the game. 

Not the play (meaning what footing he throws from or angle) but the actual throw. The placement, coverage and distance. 

If im wrong even off 1 game sample ill apologize.

I promise im not hating.  Im just trying to bring some levity to the hysteria. Same hysteria we heard with Rodgers couple years ago... now, Rodgers hysteria doesnt even create a whisper. 

Rodgers and Mahomes have nearly identicial games. Early in Rodgers career he wasnt gun shy with throws like he is now. But he did hold on to the ball to get more open targets. I dont think Mahomes has to hold on to the ball that long. His guys are open due to design of that system.

There is no knock for throwing to open targets. That is what a qb should do. Perhaps on every route for every team, there truly is a target that is wide open and some qbs have better vision and less restraint of locking in on a specific target for that play and just always find the open guy. But unlike others, i wont overpraise easier levels of execution vs degrees of difficulty.

This is why Goff impressed me so much last year. First 8 weeks or so, he was lasering in dime after dime in insanely tight coverage and small windows. How any fan isnt more impressed with tight window throws for lessor stats vs wide open throws that generate bigger stats is crazy to me. I guess im just huge on context over content. 

[kingseanjohn]

3 hours ago, Bearerofnews said:

If ya think im a hater, a troll and generally a moron. I ask you to do something. Next KC game, get a notepad and pen. Checkmark everytime Mahomes completes a pass in tight coverage and a X everytime to a relatively open target. See what the overall percentage is at the end of the game. 

I'll just leave this here, again...

 

[Hunter2_1]

So he prefers easier throws, has fumbled and they aren't keen on marking up on screen plays

 

There's usually always a reason for PFF's weirdness, to be fair. Not saying I agree with them.

[Soggust]

2 hours ago, Hunter2_1 said:

So he prefers easier throws, has fumbled and they aren't keen on marking up on screen plays

 

There's usually always a reason for PFF's weirdness, to be fair. Not saying I agree with them.

1) 'Prefers easier throws' is probably the single stupidest argument I've ever heard against a player. Do people knock Priest Holmes for finding the hole? Do people knock Jerry Rice for gaining separation? Mahomes vision is arguably his best asset and people try to use it as a knock on him. Like, what a bum for making the right reads amirite?

2) He's lost exactly one fumble (2 forced, 1 recovered). Deshaun Watson and Russell Wilson (who PFF have ranked above him) have each lost one as well (3 forced, 2 recovered and 1 forced, 0 recovered respectively). That holds no weight.

3) He's middle of the pack in average yards in air completed and attempts (and almost identical to Wilson, who again is ranked above him). He's not just throwing screens despite what uninformed people like to suggest. He's also faced better pass defenses than everyone on the list above him besides Wentz, according to DVOA.

------------------------------

It's literally the same arguments people used to make against Brady. "It's the system", "He only throws short passes and screens", blah blah blah. 

The reality as that the only "reason" PFF could have for ranking him 6th logically is that they need clickbait to drive traffic. 

 

[Hunter2_1]

5 minutes ago, Soggust said:

1) 'Prefers easier throws' is probably the single stupidest argument I've ever heard against a player. Do people knock Priest Holmes for finding the hole? Do people knock Jerry Rice for gaining separation? Mahomes vision is arguably his best asset and people try to use it as a knock on him. Like, what a bum for making the right reads amirite?

2) He's lost exactly one fumble (2 forced, 1 recovered). Deshaun Watson and Russell Wilson (who PFF have ranked above him) have each lost one as well (3 forced, 2 recovered and 1 forced, 0 recovered respectively). That holds no weight.

3) He's middle of the pack in average yards in air completed and attempts (and almost identical to Wilson, who again is ranked above him). He's not just throwing screens despite what uninformed people like to suggest. He's also faced better pass defenses than everyone on the list above him besides Wentz, according to DVOA.

------------------------------

It's literally the same arguments people used to make against Brady. "It's the system", "He only throws short passes and screens", blah blah blah. 

The reality as that the only "reason" PFF could have for ranking him 6th logically is that they need clickbait to drive traffic. 

 

Take it up with PFF. 

[Soggust]

6 hours ago, Bearerofnews said:

Mahomes makes amazing plays.. but very overrated and easy throws. Big difference between a play and a throw.  Thats why he is lower on PFF. They are assessing for tangibles that other systems dont account for.

If ya think im a hater, a troll and generally a moron. I ask you to do something. Next KC game, get a notepad and pen. Checkmark everytime Mahomes completes a pass in tight coverage and a X everytime to a relatively open target. See what the overall percentage is at the end of the game. 

Not the play (meaning what footing he throws from or angle) but the actual throw. The placement, coverage and distance. 

If im wrong even off 1 game sample ill apologize.

I promise im not hating.  Im just trying to bring some levity to the hysteria. Same hysteria we heard with Rodgers couple years ago... now, Rodgers hysteria doesnt even create a whisper. 

Rodgers and Mahomes have nearly identicial games. Early in Rodgers career he wasnt gun shy with throws like he is now. But he did hold on to the ball to get more open targets. I dont think Mahomes has to hold on to the ball that long. His guys are open due to design of that system.

There is no knock for throwing to open targets. That is what a qb should do. Perhaps on every route for every team, there truly is a target that is wide open and some qbs have better vision and less restraint of locking in on a specific target for that play and just always find the open guy. But unlike others, i wont overpraise easier levels of execution vs degrees of difficulty.

This is why Goff impressed me so much last year. First 8 weeks or so, he was lasering in dime after dime in insanely tight coverage and small windows. How any fan isnt more impressed with tight window throws for lessor stats vs wide open throws that generate bigger stats is crazy to me. I guess im just huge on context over content. 

"There is no knock for throwing to open targets"

**makes an entire argument about throwing to open targets**

-----------------------------------------------------------

This is Andy Reid's offensive career:

 

Impressive, no doubt! But if it was really just the system and guys were running free all day long, why was last year his first with a #1 offense? Why did he have 'down' years in 2013-2016 with Alex Smith (who was known for good decision making and check downs / screens)? If 5000 yards and 50 TDs is so unimpressive and expected given the system, where are all the other 50 TD or 5000 yard Andy Reid QBs? 

Reid is definitely a wonderful offensive mind, but to suggest its all Andy and Mahomes isn't a special talent is obvious hating. But you were also the guy saying Mayfield was a better young QB over the offseason and the Dolphins were a playoff team this year, so given your predictions - if you would please keep hating on Mahomes, the Chiefs would really appreciate it. 

[Soggust]

5 minutes ago, Hunter2_1 said:

Take it up with PFF. 

I don't need to /shrug. I said it was a joke and moved on with my day.

You were the one suggesting there was legitimate "reason" for the rankings by detailing 3 ignorant arguments, which is why I responded to you. 

[Hunter2_1]

7 minutes ago, Soggust said:

I don't need to /shrug. I said it was a joke and moved on with my day.

You were the one suggesting there was legitimate "reason" for the rankings by detailing 3 ignorant arguments, which is why I responded to you. 

No I absolutely wasn't, I was trying to figure out why they ranked him 6th and I even said they were weird. I've got him as the best QB in the league without it being close. 

You've got a long haul if you're going to be this defensive and reactionary. Welcome to having a good QB - you can't spend the rest of your life trying to deflect outlandish arguments, it's tiresome. 

"There's usually always a reason for PFF's weirdness, to be fair. Not saying I agree with them."

Edited September 25, 2019 by Hunter2_1

[Soggust]

1 minute ago, Hunter2_1 said:

No I absolutely wasn't, I was trying to figure out why they ranked him 6th and I even said they were weird. I've got him as the best QB in the league without it being close. 

You've got a long haul if you're going to be this defensive and reactionary. Welcome to having a good QB - you can't spend the rest of your life trying to deflect outlandish arguments, it's tiresome. 

You've got a long haul if you are on a forum and opposed to debate. 

It's not defensive or reactionary, it's voicing my opinion.

You literally stated "So he prefers easier throws, has fumbled and they aren't keen on marking up on screen plays". I disagree with this. 

If you don't want people to disagree, don't post ?

[Hunter2_1]

2 minutes ago, Soggust said:

You've got a long haul if you are on a forum and opposed to debate. 

It's not defensive or reactionary, it's voicing my opinion.

You literally stated "So he prefers easier throws, has fumbled and they aren't keen on marking up on screen plays". I disagree with this. 

If you don't want people to disagree, don't post ?

That's me trying to work out why they're putting him 6th.

You're fine to disgaree, but I object to you putting words into my mouth and telling me what I'm saying

 

I'll quote myself again, just to be even clearer.

 

"Not saying I agree with them"

"I've got him as the best QB without it being close"

 

Do you still think I agree with them?

Edited September 25, 2019 by Hunter2_1

[Matts4313]

27 minutes ago, Soggust said:

1) 'Prefers easier throws' is probably the single stupidest argument I've ever heard against a player. Do people knock Priest Holmes for finding the hole? Do people knock Jerry Rice for gaining separation? Mahomes vision is arguably his best asset and people try to use it as a knock on him. Like, what a bum for making the right reads amirite?

2) He's lost exactly one fumble (2 forced, 1 recovered). Deshaun Watson and Russell Wilson (who PFF have ranked above him) have each lost one as well (3 forced, 2 recovered and 1 forced, 0 recovered respectively). That holds no weight.

3) He's middle of the pack in average yards in air completed and attempts (and almost identical to Wilson, who again is ranked above him). He's not just throwing screens despite what uninformed people like to suggest. He's also faced better pass defenses than everyone on the list above him besides Wentz, according to DVOA.

------------------------------

It's literally the same arguments people used to make against Brady. "It's the system", "He only throws short passes and screens", blah blah blah. 

The reality as that the only "reason" PFF could have for ranking him 6th logically is that they need clickbait to drive traffic. 

 

I think PFF rankings are a joke, but I can understand their point intellectually.

• First of all, you point out that some QBs above him have some flaws as well, but what about the cumulation of all the points?
• Secondly, you are ignoring the grades. They show you that the point differential from Mahomes being #6 and #3 is <5. So most of these guys are ballpark graded about the same after 3 games.
• 3rd, PFF does knock other players for having easy assignments. 

[Soggust]

Just now, Hunter2_1 said:

That's me trying to work out why they're putting him 6th.

You're fine to disgaree, but I object to you putting words into my mouth and telling me what I'm saying

 

I'll quote myself again, just to be even clearer.

 

"Not saying I agree with them"

 

Do you still think I agree with them?

I think your phrasing suggests that you believe these are valid reasons to detract from someone, regardless of whether or not you agree, but honestly, it's probably not worth it to either of us.

I'll chalk it up as me misunderstanding your post.