Quarterback Rankings (final regular season 2019)

[Danger]

2 minutes ago, Matts4313 said:

"Carson isnt elevating his teammates" 

Isnt that the knock on Dak? He wasnt elevating Allen Hurns and Geoff Swaim? But Carson has Agholar and Ertz. And the "deepest most talented team in the NFL". Why isnt he elevating them?

 

PS: Maybe Wentz's WRs wouldnt have alligator arms if he would quit leading them directly into harms way. 

It's not even that, these are all just flat out drops. Watch the game and you can't honestly blame Wentz at all. Wentz can't catch the ball for these guys lmao.

[Bearerofnews]

Also me looking at things with Mahomes in a more granular lense doesnt = me saying Mahomes sucks. Mahomes is great. Its not hard to see he is a little different than every other qb. He just looks different the way he plays. You see the skill level. My point is the stats are misleading to his true play and skillset.  

[Matts4313]

4 minutes ago, Danger said:

It's not even that, these are all just flat out drops. Watch the game and you can't honestly blame Wentz at all. Wentz can't catch the ball for these guys lmao.

I watched the Falcons games. There were more drops by their DBs than the Eagles WRs.

I didnt see the Lions game. 

Edited September 25, 2019 by Matts4313

[Matts4313]

52 minutes ago, Danger said:

It's not even that, these are all just flat out drops. Watch the game and you can't honestly blame Wentz at all. Wentz can't catch the ball for these guys lmao.

Honestly though => Clearly the injuries and the worse weapons are going to hurt QB performance. Just like, as I pointed out ad nauseum, having the 5th worst pass blocking OL in the NFL last year hurt Dak. So I am not really knocking Wentz. I even said to Skippy like a week ago that I anticipate the lesser talent around Wentz to affect performance. Its just ironic. 

Edited September 25, 2019 by Matts4313

[Blackstar12]

Frank Reich is a big part of why Jacoby is rated so high. His playcalling is definitely up there with the best of them.

Edited September 25, 2019 by Blackstar12

[Elky]

PFF are the type of people that try to sound smart by being contrarian and acting like they have the "third eye". Patrick Mahomes is playing at level where you don't beat him, you survive him. He's the best QB in the NFL right now.

Edited September 26, 2019 by Elky

[Soggust]

34 minutes ago, Bearerofnews said:

Mcnabb, Colb, Vick and Alex Smith arent top 10 qb caliber players.. maybe fringe top 12 with Mcnabb who he did have top 4 offense with his best receiver being Pinkston. He had a top 2 offense with Vick. 

Mahomes is clearly top 10.  But if you are gonna really act like being in that system, which has completely evolved recrntly in play design does not contribute to alot of easy stats, you are being disingenuous. I get KC fans havent had a great qb in like 40 years (unless ya count Montana at the end or Trent Green as great) so ya are extra defensive. But its really not just KC fans. Its everyone. Put on any network and Mahomes is a god, go to any qb thread on here and fans from every team, Mahomes is a god.

Mahomes has fans of the most dominant NFL dynasty ever, fanboying the Chiefs because of Mahomes. NE fans literally on here sound like KC fans because they are all in. Almost like NE fans, with their team looking the most dominant it has ever looked 3 games in, seem to be more in on KC than their own team, because of Mahomes.

Admiration for a young promising talent, once again turns into hyperbolic over-exaggerated hysteria because of face value stats.  Stats that are heavily influenced due to system. This happens every couple of years. In 2 or 3 years the new flavor will be Tua or Trevor or one of the other many young qbs who will be entering the league.

I hear morons like Trey Wingo geeking out over screen passes or a fake handoff last week in a playaction fake where Mahomes puts the ball by his knee. Like come on, is that really impressive.

My predictions first off, are meant to be bold. I missed the mark on Dolphins. I knew a AFCE team would surprise, i just picked the wrong one. As for Baker, its 3 weeks in. 

I'm someone who values situational success. For example, the mods on this page are great and do an amazing job. But alot of that has to do with football future being the gold standard IMO for sports message boards. It has great structure, stability and consistent rules that all posters are aware of. So the mods jobs here is easy. How would the mods look on a unstructured, chaotic and messy board that doesnt have the leadership it does here. The point im making is what Baker did in Cleveland as a true rookie to me was more telling than what Mahomes did in KC.

There is a reason KCs skill players, alot of them share the same key physical trait.... speeeeed. It goes with the misdirections and the offset route concepts that system utilizes.

I can't believe I'm even saying this, but you do have some merit in what you are saying. 

I don't think rational KC fans (or people, in general) are saying Mahomes is infallible and can do no wrong. He does benefit from great coaching. He does benefit from good receiver play. He does miss throws. He will have 0td 2int games. He is human.

Where I disagree, and what I think you are missing is that every QB has flaws and every successful QB is in a system that benefits them. If it were as simple as throwing screens and good play design, Goff would be putting up 5500 yards a year. Brady would be putting up 50 TDs every year. Manning would have had a bunch of 5000 yard seasons. 

That's the point. This isn't some guy who simply had a really good season with 35 TDs and 8picks with 4000 yards passing. His numbers last year were astronomically good and arguably a top-3 regular season of all time. He went for 50 tds and 5000 yards and was the MVP of the league in his first year starting. Currently, he's leading the league in passer rating, yards, tds, etc (with 0 picks). To suggest he's not even top 5 because, hey he missed some throws, didn't throw into coverage enough, one of his screens went 14 yards for a TD and umm his receivers are fast - is ridiculous. 

Plenty of teams have good play design. Plenty of teams have fast players. Plenty of teams throw screens. Not very many teams in HISTORY are throwing for 50 TDs.

Every QB has flaws. I'm having a hard time justifying Mahomes outside of the top 5 unless you are just blatantly biased or looking for clicks and I don't think it has anything to do with being a Chiefs fan. 

Edited September 25, 2019 by Soggust

[Matts4313]

13 minutes ago, Soggust said:

To suggest he's not even top 5

I still hate this argument. Their grades are posted. They clearly have him in "top 5" range. 

Its not a knock on Mahomes to say Dak and Brady have been better, so far. Every single Cowboys and Pats fan would trade our QB for Mahomes straight up right now. We all know Patty M is the future of the league and the standard everyone will be measured against. That doesnt mean he has had the best 3 game stretch. 

[SkippyX]

McNabb was so freaking brutal on a week to week basis.

• His fans blame his weapons for not being able to catch worm burners.
• He was a sub-60% WCO QB who would bounce routine passes.
• He had 9 starts with a yards per pass below 4.0 yards in 142 Eagles starts (26 below 5.0)
  • Eli had 7 of those games in 232 Giants starts. (22 below 5.0) ... in 90 more starts!
  • Testaverde had 12 and 28 in 214 starts

Getting 5 top 10 offenses out of McNabb and 2 more out of Vick before the injury filled bloodbath of 2012 that got him fired was nothing short of amazing.

[Soggust]

3 minutes ago, Matts4313 said:

I still hate this argument. Their grades are posted. They clearly have him in "top 5" range. 

Its not a knock on Mahomes to say Dak and Brady have been better, so far. Every single Cowboys and Pats fan would trade our QB for Mahomes straight up right now. We all know Patty M is the future of the league and the standard everyone will be measured against. That doesnt mean he has had the best 3 game stretch. 

It would be like if I said Tom Brady was the 6th best QB of all time. Someone might reply "You don't even have him top 5?!?!?!". Then someone says "Well he's in the top-5 range". When you are debating who is #1, #6 is a big step. Look, you might prefer Manning or Montana, but when you get 5 others in front of him, you're clearly looking for reasons to push him down.

I think Mahomes has the best argument right now for #1, but if you have Dak or even Brady ahead after 3 games - I can live with that. To suggest 5 others are better is where you are pushing it, despite them all being fantastic QBs in their own right. Especially when the argument is "ignore the stats because it's all the team and system".

[Soggust]

8 minutes ago, SkippyX said:

McNabb was so freaking brutal on a week to week basis.

• His fans blame his weapons for not being able to catch worm burners.
• He was a sub-60% WCO QB who would bounce routine passes.
• He had 9 starts with a yards per pass below 4.0 yards in 142 Eagles starts (26 below 5.0)
  • Eli had 7 of those games in 232 Giants starts. (22 below 5.0) ... in 90 more starts!
  • Testaverde had 12 and 28 in 214 starts

Getting 5 top 10 offenses out of McNabb and 2 more out of Vick before the injury filled bloodbath of 2012 that got him fired was nothing short of amazing.

1000% agree. My point wasn't to suggest that McNabb was some world beater, but rather that it's not like any bum could put up 50 TDs and 5K yards because of Andy Reid.

It's obviously a combination of an elite QB with an elite offensive mind. 

[Matts4313]

3 minutes ago, Soggust said:

It would be like if I said Tom Brady was the 6th best QB of all time. Someone might reply "You don't even have him top 5?!?!?!". Then someone says "Well he's in the top-5 range". When you are debating who is #1, #6 is a big step. Look, you might prefer Manning or Montana, but when you get 5 others in front of him, you're clearly looking for reasons to push him down.

I think Mahomes has the best argument right now for #1, but if you have Dak or even Brady ahead after 3 games - I can live with that. To suggest 5 others are better is where you are pushing it, despite them all being fantastic QBs in their own right. Especially when the argument is "ignore the stats because it's all the team and system".

Where you are mixing up, is no one - -  NO ONE - - - is saying there are 5 better QBs. PFF is saying there have been 5 QBs that have had a better 3 game stretch. 

They are wrong, of course. But again, its just 3 games. Its not who is actually the best. 

[Soggust]

Just now, Matts4313 said:

Where you are mixing up, is no one - -  NO ONE - - - is saying there are 5 better QBs. PFF is saying there have been 5 QBs that have had a better 3 game stretch. 

They are wrong, of course. But again, its just 3 games. Its not who is actually the best. 

Let me clarify, I'm not debating who's "better" either. With regards to PFF, I'm talking about 2019 as well, in isolation. That's why I was mentioning I didn't have a problem with Dak above him, although I believe he is statistically the best QB this year (through three games), pretty soundly. The argument against him (this year) is literally, "ignore the stats, it's team success".  

My comments to bearerofnews stem from other debates regarding him in totality, so I can see how that could have gotten misconstrued. 

[Nabbs4u]

18 minutes ago, SkippyX said:

McNabb was so freaking brutal on a week to week basis.

• His fans blame his weapons for not being able to catch worm burners.
• He was a sub-60% WCO QB who would bounce routine passes.
• He had 9 starts with a yards per pass below 4.0 yards in 142 Eagles starts (26 below 5.0)
  • Eli had 7 of those games in 232 Giants starts. (22 below 5.0) ... in 90 more starts!
  • Testaverde had 12 and 28 in 214 starts

Getting 5 top 10 offenses out of McNabb and 2 more out of Vick before the injury filled bloodbath of 2012 that got him fired was nothing short of amazing.

I know you hate McNabb but his Weapons outside of the RB position were absolute trash. Hence his numbers. There wasn't a QB who did more with less during his Era, that put up his type of numbers other then Tom Brady. Sorry!

[LeotheLion]

57 minutes ago, Soggust said:

Where I disagree, and what I think you are missing is that every QB has flaws and every successful QB is in a system that benefits them. If it were as simple as throwing screens and good play design, Goff would be putting up 5500 yards a year.

This is argument is my problem. Mahomes didn't throw for 5500 yards. Goff last year threw 400 less yards than Mahomes on 20 less attempts. A difference but if we multiply his Y/A by that we get a difference of around 250. We just had a thread asking if Goff is good. We have people wondering how other Qbs could do if they had McVay but no one is really questioning the scheme with Mahomes. Mahomes is a better talent but there's certainly a double standard there.