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Seahawks trading TE Nick Vannett to the Steelers


AFlaccoSeagulls

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16 hours ago, Dome said:

I had a Seahawk fan look me dead in the eye and tell me that it was a one score game, and anything could’ve happened.

There’s a screen shot with double zeros on the scoreboard and a 12 point difference in the score. So there’s that.

Technically, it was a one score game, the Seahawks scored on the very last play as time expired to make it a one score game!

https://www.espn.com/nfl/playbyplay?gameId=401127993

But yeah, from 33 seconds until halftime until the end of the game, the Seahawks were down by 2+ scores. That game was never close.

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51 minutes ago, AFlaccoSeagulls said:

You're forgetting that the Seahawks are god awful at drafting recently, though. Hell, they just healthy scratched their 1st round pick from this year and their 1st round pick from last year is a RB who is barely getting any snaps as it is.

EDIT: Speaking of how well the Seahawks have drafted recently, they just cut their 4th round pick from this year to sign a safety from FA:

 

Yeah, Seattle went from a great drafting team in the early 2010s to terrible pretty quickly. I've never been a fan of SPARQ, and as far as I understand, they rely on it heavily in their approach.

1 hour ago, N4L said:

Also, Russel threw TWO interceptions on that final drive that were called back 

To be fair, those were free plays.

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5 minutes ago, jrry32 said:

Yeah, Seattle went from a great drafting team in the early 2010s to terrible pretty quickly. I've never been a fan of SPARQ, and as far as I understand, they rely on it heavily in their approach.

Seems as though the teams that lean heavy on this have been terrible at drafting.

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1 hour ago, AFlaccoSeagulls said:

You're forgetting that the Seahawks are god awful at drafting recently, though. Hell, they just healthy scratched their 1st round pick from this year and their 1st round pick from last year is a RB who is barely getting any snaps as it is.

EDIT: Speaking of how well the Seahawks have drafted recently, they just cut their 4th round pick from this year to sign a safety from FA:

 

Eh, cast a wide net.

Carson, Poona Ford, David Moore, Tre Flowers, Shaq Griffin, DK Metcalf, Will Dissly, Rasheem Green , Lano Hill/Tedric Thompson (who both a eh, to meh), Michael Dickson, Penny (overdrafted probably, but still contributed a lot last year), Jacob Martin (used as equity to obtain Clowney) are all important contributors drafted in the last few drafts.  Certainly not ideal (there have been some big misses, no elite players), but I'm not hitting the panic button yet.

Just to nitpick, Colbert was on the PS, and multiple teams were trying to sign him. With McDougald injury, they potentially needed another body at safety. Jennings probably replaces Colbert on PS unless someone wants to burn a 53 on him. 

Collier being a healthy scratch is frustrating. That 5 tech might be cursed (Malik McD beforehand)

Edited by animaltested
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44 minutes ago, incognito_man said:

lol, whoops

"essentially 14-7" but actually 27-7. Those 13 other points were scored by schrodinger's cat. Maybe there? Maybe not.

Nobody is going to agree with me and it was my mistake to relive that stupid game, but Seattles defense had only given up 2 touchdowns in the first 50 minutes of the game. The third was scored after a failed 4th down on Seattles OWN 28 yard line. 

Those two fluky TD's (Punt return for TD, fumble recovery for a TD) put the coaching staff inexplicably on full tilt, which lead to some awful decisions. I am certainly not putting stock in those garbage time Td's in the 4th. Those were absolutely meaningless. The game was over once Russell over threw Lockett (a throw that has been automatic the last few years) in the endzone on 4th down late in the 3rd. 

Before anyone tries to twist my words, Seattle got outplayed, out coached, and they are an incredibly flawed team right now with a lot of issues. Even without those two early fluky TD's , Seattle probably still loses. So keep your quotes in the pocket fellas. 

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7 hours ago, AFlaccoSeagulls said:

Technically, it was a one score game, the Seahawks scored on the very last play as time expired to make it a one score game!

https://www.espn.com/nfl/playbyplay?gameId=401127993

But yeah, from 33 seconds until halftime until the end of the game, the Seahawks were down by 2+ scores. That game was never close.

It was pretty much over after the fumble by Carson because i think it put up by 3 scores i do like Dissly though.

Edited by Sacks98
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8 hours ago, animaltested said:

Eh, cast a wide net.

Carson, Poona Ford, David Moore,

All solid players.

8 hours ago, animaltested said:

Tre Flowers, Shaq Griffin,

Are really bad.

8 hours ago, animaltested said:

DK Metcalf, Will Dissly,

Solid players.

8 hours ago, animaltested said:

Rasheem Green , Lano Hill/Tedric Thompson (who both a eh, to meh),

Garbage.

8 hours ago, animaltested said:

Michael Dickson,

Massively regressed.

8 hours ago, animaltested said:

Penny (overdrafted probably, but still contributed a lot last year),

Overdrafted and garbage.

8 hours ago, animaltested said:

Jacob Martin (used as equity to obtain Clowney)

A complete nobody.

8 hours ago, animaltested said:

are all important contributors drafted in the last few drafts.  Certainly not ideal (there have been some big misses, no elite players), but I'm not hitting the panic button yet.

Just to nitpick, Colbert was on the PS, and multiple teams were trying to sign him. With McDougald injury, they potentially needed another body at safety. Jennings probably replaces Colbert on PS unless someone wants to burn a 53 on him. 

Collier being a healthy scratch is frustrating. That 5 tech might be cursed (Malik McD beforehand)

 

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8 hours ago, AFlaccoSeagulls said:

All solid players.

Are really bad.

Solid players.

Garbage.

Massively regressed.

Overdrafted and garbage.

A complete nobody.

 

Gonna stop you right there. Penny (overdrafted, yes Garbage, no) is having a decent start to his career. Averaging 4.9 yard per carry  thus far in his career (101 carries thus far) His limited usage has MORE to do with how great Carson played last year, and how good of a 3rd down back Mike Davis was. You are letting his over drafting influence the your opinion of his play. Could see a lot more touches moving forward.

Tre Flowers and Shaq Griffin have a combined 52 starts at CB [From a 6th and 3rd pick]. Again, you have a very hyperbolic view on them. Both are flawed and inconsistent, but are no where near BAD.

Thompson and Hill played well at time last year, but again consistency was an issue, including this year. Both guys are probably better served as 3rd safeties. But again, getting 15 starts at safety from a 4th round pick, and 3rd comp pick is ok all things considered.

Rasheem Green essentially redshirted last year, but has been an solid piece on the DL thus far. Again 3rd pick, playing a key role.

Dickson was an All-Pro last year. Struggling this year, sure, but come on.

The Seahawks were AWFUL from 2013-2016 at drafting. Usually only 2-3 guys from each draft would make the team. But in the last three drafts, Seattle has found a ton of solid rotational pieces have gotten a ton of starters. Not hitting elite players is a legitimate criticism of PCJS lately. But being able to fill out positions and find starters in middle rounds is key when paying a QB 30 million. PCJS have been able to do that the since 2017. A lot of peoples perception of PCJS seems to be carrying over from that '13-'16 dud stretch.

Now if Collier, Blair and Barton all bust, then its time hit the panic button.

 

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2 minutes ago, animaltested said:

 

Now if Collier, Blair and Barton all bust, then its time hit the panic button.

 

He definitely wasn't worth a 1st round pick...not a good start there. And Marquise Blair, right? From Utah? I liked him a lot, but not in the 2nd round! Perhaps the 4th.... 

So, don't hold your breath. I'd keep my finger hovering over that button.

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3 minutes ago, animaltested said:

Gonna stop you right there. Penny (overdrafted, yes Garbage, no) is having a decent start to his career. Averaging 4.9 yard per carry  thus far in his career (101 carries thus far) His limited usage has MORE to do with how great Carson played last year, and how good of a 3rd down back Mike Davis was. You are letting his over drafting influence the your opinion of his play. Could see a lot more touches moving forward.

There is just nothing special about watching Penny play. He doesn't make people miss, he doesn't have great vision, doesn't have elite speed. He's only seeing more touches because Carson, the more talented back despite being drafted in the 7th round, is having fumbling issues.

3 minutes ago, animaltested said:

Tre Flowers and Shaq Griffin have a combined 52 starts at CB [From a 6th and 3rd pick]. Again, you have a very hyperbolic view on them. Both are flawed and inconsistent, but are no where near BAD.

Combing for starts doesn't mean they're good lol Tre Flowers has zero career interceptions and Shaq was one of the worst graded CB's in the NFL last year IIRC. 

3 minutes ago, animaltested said:

Thompson and Hill played well at time last year, but again consistency was an issue, including this year. Both guys are probably better served as 3rd safeties. But again, getting 15 starts at safety from a 4th round pick, and 3rd comp pick is ok all things considered.

They're getting starts because the rest of the roster is that bad.

3 minutes ago, animaltested said:

Rasheem Green essentially redshirted last year, but has been an solid piece on the DL thus far. Again 3rd pick, playing a key role.

Dickson was an All-Pro last year. Struggling this year, sure, but come on.

Dickson was an animal last year and has severely regressed this year.

3 minutes ago, animaltested said:

The Seahawks were AWFUL from 2013-2016 at drafting. Usually only 2-3 guys from each draft would make the team. But in the last three drafts, Seattle has found a ton of solid rotational pieces have gotten a ton of starters. Not hitting elite players is a legitimate criticism of PCJS lately. But being able to fill out positions and find starters in middle rounds is key when paying a QB 30 million. PCJS have been able to do that the since 2017. A lot of peoples perception of PCJS seems to be carrying over from that '13-'16 dud stretch.

Now if Collier, Blair and Barton all bust, then its time hit the panic button.

This argument of "They found starters!" is a lot like where Ravens fans were from 2013-2017. Sure, we had guys starting, but they weren't good starters and their play on the field was not good. Simply because someone is starting doesn't mean you drafted well, especially if that player is struggling as a starter - it just means the guys behind that person are worse. Seattle's secondary went from legendary to one of the worst in the NFL statistically - touting Tre Flowers and Shaq Griffin along with Lano, Tedric and whoever else (NOTE: I'm a huge Marquise Blair fan, so I hope he pans out) is just not a positive thing IMO lol

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37 minutes ago, AFlaccoSeagulls said:

This argument of "They found starters!" is a lot like where Ravens fans were from 2013-2017. Sure, we had guys starting, but they weren't good starters and their play on the field was not good. Simply because someone is starting doesn't mean you drafted well, especially if that player is struggling as a starter - it just means the guys behind that person are worse. Seattle's secondary went from legendary to one of the worst in the NFL statistically - touting Tre Flowers and Shaq Griffin along with Lano, Tedric and whoever else (NOTE: I'm a huge Marquise Blair fan, so I hope he pans out) is just not a positive thing IMO lol

Im tipsy on the Kool-Aid, but Im not drunk. I don't agree with you, but I don't completely disagree (if that makes any sense?)

PCJS seem to be favoring undervalued players they feel fit the role of what they want from the position, high floor safe picks. Far cry from earlier when they went after high ceiling athletes with chips on their shoulders. Guys like Flowers, Shaq, Lano, Thompson etc seem to be able to do their job, but not the ability to take things to the next level. That's the frustrating part. Lockett, Clark and Reed were guys drafted during the dud years, who where able to take the next step. This next crop hasn't really done that yet (Dissy, Poona, DK look poised to though). Maybe the internal collapse in 2017 due the weight of egos, shifted their strategy and philosophy? Not going to lie, I like a lot of the role players they have picked in the last three years, but it would be nice for Seattle to bring in a few elite-blue chippers again. Russell cant one-man-band Seattle to the playoffs every year. 

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1 hour ago, animaltested said:

Gonna stop you right there. Penny (overdrafted, yes Garbage, no) is having a decent start to his career. Averaging 4.9 yard per carry  thus far in his career (101 carries thus far) His limited usage has MORE to do with how great Carson played last year, and how good of a 3rd down back Mike Davis was. You are letting his over drafting influence the your opinion of his play. Could see a lot more touches moving forward.

Tre Flowers and Shaq Griffin have a combined 52 starts at CB [From a 6th and 3rd pick]. Again, you have a very hyperbolic view on them. Both are flawed and inconsistent, but are no where near BAD.

Thompson and Hill played well at time last year, but again consistency was an issue, including this year. Both guys are probably better served as 3rd safeties. But again, getting 15 starts at safety from a 4th round pick, and 3rd comp pick is ok all things considered.

Rasheem Green essentially redshirted last year, but has been an solid piece on the DL thus far. Again 3rd pick, playing a key role.

Dickson was an All-Pro last year. Struggling this year, sure, but come on.

The Seahawks were AWFUL from 2013-2016 at drafting. Usually only 2-3 guys from each draft would make the team. But in the last three drafts, Seattle has found a ton of solid rotational pieces have gotten a ton of starters. Not hitting elite players is a legitimate criticism of PCJS lately. But being able to fill out positions and find starters in middle rounds is key when paying a QB 30 million. PCJS have been able to do that the since 2017. A lot of peoples perception of PCJS seems to be carrying over from that '13-'16 dud stretch.

Now if Collier, Blair and Barton all bust, then its time hit the panic button.

 

I agree with this assessment.  Those guys are still really young, too.  It's too early to call them bad or bust.  Just because they're not hitting a ton of elite players doesn't mean their drafts have been bad.  Like you mentioned, they have found a lot of solid pieces over the past few years and those players still have room to grow.  The years where they drafted Wilson, Sherman, Wagner, Thomas, etc is a pretty unrealistic standard to be held to.

And it's like I always say, at least the Seahawks turned that great drafting into a Superbowl title.  There are teams that have drafted really well over the past few years and they have no hardware to show for it.

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Let's review shall we? Since the 2012 draft that brought in Bruce Irvin, Bobby Wagner, Russell Wilson, Jeremy Lane and JR Sweezy:

Year Rnd Player Pick Pos To AP1 PB St CarAV G Cmp Att Yds TD Int Att Yds TD Rec Yds TD Int Sk College/Univ
2018 1 Rashaad Penny 27 RB 2019 0 0 0 4 16           101 499 3 10 78 0     San Diego St.
2018 3 Rasheem Green 79 DT 2019 0 0 1 1 13                         2.0 USC
2018 4 Will Dissly 120 TE 2019 0 0 1 2 7                 20 280 5     Washington
2018 5 Shaquem Griffin 141 OLB 2019 0 0 0 2 19                           Central Florida
2018 5 Tre Flowers 146 S 2019 0 0 2 6 18                           Oklahoma St.
2018 5 Michael Dickson 149 P 2019 1 1 2 3 19           1 9 0           Texas
2018 5 Jamarco Jones 168 T 2019 0 0 0 0 2                           Ohio St.
2018 6 Jacob Martin 186 LB 2019 0 0 0 2 19                         3.0 Temple
2018 7 Alex McGough 220 QB   0 0 0                               Florida International
Year Rnd Player Pick Pos To AP1 PB St CarAV G Cmp Att Yds TD Int Att Yds TD Rec Yds TD Int Sk College/Univ
2017 2 Malik McDowell 35 DT   0 0 0                               Michigan St.
2017 2 Ethan Pocic 58 C 2019 0 0 0 7 28                           LSU
2017 3 Shaquill Griffin 90 DB 2019 0 0 3 11 34                       3 1.0 Central Florida
2017 3 Delano Hill 95 S 2019 0 0 1 3 31                           Michigan
2017 3 Nazair Jones 102 DT 2018 0 0 0 3 20                       1 2.0 North Carolina
2017 3 Amara Darboh 106 WR 2017 0 0 0 1 16                 8 71 0     Michigan
2017 4 Tedric Thompson 111 S 2019 0 0 1 5 24                       1   Colorado
2017 6 Michael Tyson 187 S 2018 0 0 0 1 10                           Cincinnati
2017 6 Justin Senior 210 T   0 0 0                               Mississippi St.
2017 7 David Moore 226 WR 2019 0 0 0 4 18           1 5 0 27 474 5     East Central (OK)
2017 7 Chris Carson 249 RB 2019 0 0 2 12 21           341 1517 10 37 281 2     Oklahoma St.
Year Rnd Player Pick Pos To AP1 PB St CarAV G Cmp Att Yds TD Int Att Yds TD Rec Yds TD Int Sk College/Univ
2016 1 Germain Ifedi 31 G 2019 0 0 4 19 47                           Texas A&M
2016 2 Jarran Reed 49 DT 2018 0 0 2 18 46                         13.5 Alabama
2016 3 C.J. Prosise 90 RB 2019 0 0 0 4 19           48 204 1 34 368 0     Notre Dame
2016 3 Nick Vannett 94 TE 2019 0 0 1 4 42                 48 463 4     Ohio St.
2016 3 Rees Odhiambo 97 G 2018 0 0 0 4 16                           Boise St.
2016 5 Quinton Jefferson 147 DT 2019 0 0 2 7 28                         6.0 Maryland
2016 5 Alex Collins 171 RB 2018 0 0 2 14 36           357 1509 14 49 376 1     Arkansas
2016 6 Joey Hunt 215 C 2019 0 0 0 3 21                           TCU
2016 7 Kenny Lawler 243 WR   0 0 0                               California
2016 7 Zac Brooks 247 RB   0 0 0                               Clemson
Year Rnd Player Pick Pos To AP1 PB St CarAV G Cmp Att Yds TD Int Att Yds TD Rec Yds TD Int Sk College/Univ
2015 2 Frank Clark 63 DE 2019 0 0 3 22 65                       2 36.0 Michigan
2015 3 Tyler Lockett 69 WR 2019 1 1 4 29 66           34 261 1 216 3058 21     Kansas St.
2015 4 Terry Poole 130 G   0 0 0                               San Diego St.
2015 4 Mark Glowinski 134 G 2019 0 0 3 13 49                           West Virginia
2015 5 Tye Smith 170 CB 2019 0 0 0 1 20                       1   Towson
2015 6 Obum Gwacham 209 DE 2017 0 0 0 1 15                         2.5 Oregon St.
2015 6 Kristjan Sokoli 214 DT 2015 0 0 0 0 1                           Buffalo
2015 7 Ryan Murphy 248 DB 2017 0 0 0 0 3                           Oregon St.
Year Rnd Player Pick Pos To AP1 PB St CarAV G Cmp Att Yds TD Int Att Yds TD Rec Yds TD Int Sk College/Univ
2014 2 Paul Richardson 45 WR 2019 0 0 2 12 57           3 14 0 130 1699 12     Colorado
2014 2 Justin Britt 64 T 2019 0 0 6 35 82                           Missouri
2014 4 Cassius Marsh 108 DE 2019 0 0 0 9 71                         12.5 UCLA
2014 4 Kevin Norwood 123 WR 2015 0 0 0 1 10                 9 102 0     Alabama
2014 4 Kevin Pierre-Louis 132 LB 2019 0 0 0 5 60                         1.0 Boston Col.
2014 5 Jimmy Staten 172 DT 2014 0 0 0 0 0                           Middle Tenn. St.
2014 6 Garrett Scott 199 OL 2014 0 0 0 0 0                           Marshall
2014 6 Eric Pinkins 208 DB 2016 0 0 0 0 11                           San Diego St.
2014 7 Kiero Small 227 RB 2014 0 0 0 0 3                           Arkansas
Year Rnd Player Pick Pos To AP1 PB St CarAV G Cmp Att Yds TD Int Att Yds TD Rec Yds TD Int Sk College/Univ
2013 2 Christine Michael 62 RB 2018 0 0 0 9 38           256 1089 7 26 135 1     Texas A&M
2013 3 Jordan Hill 87 DT 2016 0 0 0 6 31                       1 7.0 Penn St.
2013 4 Chris Harper 123 WR 2014 0 0 0 0 4                           Kansas St.
2013 5 Jesse Williams 137 DT   0 0 0                               Alabama
2013 5 Tharold Simon 138 DB 2016 0 0 0 3 20                       1   LSU
2013 5 Luke Willson 158 TE 2018 0 0 2 11 86                 102 1216 11     Rice
2013 6 Spencer Ware 194 RB 2018 0 0 1 17 40           340 1580 11 59 676 2     LSU
2013 7 Ryan Seymour 220 G 2016 0 0 0 2 13                           Vanderbilt
2013 7 Ty Powell 231 DE 2014 0 0 0 1 19                         1.0 Harding
2013 7 Jared Smith 241 DT   0 0 0                               New Hampshire
2013 7 Michael Bowie 242 T 2014 0 0 0 4 9                          

2013 and 2014 the Seahawks still had their core pieces. 2015 was when the 2013 draft class and it's lack of anything started to show cracks. Seahawks finished 10-6 and lost to the Panthers (and pretty badly if you ignore just the score) in the playoffs. Seahawks still had a top 3 DVOA defense (from #1 in 2014) and their offense was #1 in DVOA that year.

2016, Seahawks go 10-5-1 with the loss to Atlanta in the playoffs. Seahawks that year had the 16th ranked DVOA offense and the 9th ranked DVOA defense. The decline has officially started.

2017 Seahawks miss the playoffs entirely, going 9-7. Offense was 13th in DVOA, defense was 10th.

2018 Seahawks go 10-6, make the playoffs and lose in the wildcard round to the Cowboys. Offense was 9th in DVOA and Defense was 19th.

So the Seahawks have basically steadily declined since 2015, and you can't really ignore that a large part of that decline is that they simply haven't found adequate talent in the draft, starting in 2013. 

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