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3rivers

the order of disapproval

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Shaquille Barrett 2019 salary - $4mil

Bud Dupree + Anthony Chickillo 2019 salary - $11.1mil

Seriously people.  This isn't rocket science.  Colbert is screwing up talent and the cap.

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44 minutes ago, warfelg said:

Shaquille Barrett 2019 salary - $4mil

Bud Dupree + Anthony Chickillo 2019 salary - $11.1mil

Seriously people.  This isn't rocket science.  Colbert is screwing up talent and the cap.

This isn’t meant to be a defense of Colbert, but common man. There’s 5 full years of seeing that Barrett wasn’t very good playin on a really nice DL and opposite the best rusher in the league. I

Maybe it finally clicked, maybe it’s a 4 game stretch of his career...

Player A: 14 sacks in 77 career games 

Player B: 20 sacks in 53 career games 

who you taking?

you don’t like Colbert...but Barrett wasn’t some written in stone thing the league passed over. Maybe we should have take the flyer instead of taking STer Chickillo, you have no argument from me. Put sitting here now and using the best 4 games a guy has ever played and saying “SEE!!!” Is entirely unfair. 

Before it comes up: I won’t go back down the Dupree salary road. It’s not the price they think he cost; it’s they price they were willing to play to not have another hole to fill. That’s it. 

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If you think Barrett "wasn't very good", have you really watched him play?

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30 teams passed on this guy at 1 year for $4M in a league that desperately needs to get after the passer. Yeah, I’m comfortable in my assessment.

I’m not getting into a “do you even watch Denver games, bro?” Match. I’ve watched my fair share thanks to fantasy ties over the last 4 years. He never stood out and surely never showed out like this. 

Maybe he needed a 5 year head start. Maybe the coaching staff on Tampa has unleashed him.

....maybe it’s an insane 4 game stretch no one saw coming. I’d bank on the 27 year old guy in a worse situation then the one he was in is who we thought he was at the end of the day. 

He whooped Nate Solder for 4 of them....he hasn’t gone through a murders row of LT play. 

Edited by Dcash4

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6 minutes ago, Dcash4 said:

Player A: 14 sacks in 77 career games 

Player B: 20 sacks in 53 career games 

I'm guessing here that Player A is Barrett and Player B is Dupree.

And if I am right on that:

Barrett, 14 sacks, 25 TFL, 7 FF, 7 PD, 2 FR, 0 INT in 1856 career snaps to the start of this season

Dupree, 20 sacks, 33 TFL, 2 FF, 7 PD, 1 FR, 1 INT in 2544 career snaps to the start of this season

Say what you will there, but when you look at based on a per snap performance at worst (without looking at tape and only looking at stats) you could say that Barrett gives you Dupree's production at a fraction of the cost.

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3 minutes ago, warfelg said:

I'm guessing here that Player A is Barrett and Player B is Dupree.

And if I am right on that:

Barrett, 14 sacks, 25 TFL, 7 FF, 7 PD, 2 FR, 0 INT in 1856 career snaps to the start of this season

Dupree, 20 sacks, 33 TFL, 2 FF, 7 PD, 1 FR, 1 INT in 2544 career snaps to the start of this season

Say what you will there, but when you look at based on a per snap performance at worst (without looking at tape and only looking at stats) you could say that Barrett gives you Dupree's production at a fraction of the cost.

I was going to ask about Barrett, but y'all beat me to it :$

Barrett would have been about 1/3 the price of chickillo and dupree, but appears to be much better than both this seasonO.o Lets see if he keeps this pace or even close to it. There was someone here that wanted the steelers to sign him, anyone remember who it was? Maybe they should take over colbert's jobxD

Some players have streaks, this could be one for Barrett. If it isn't, then the bucs made a good decision in signing him .  

 

Oh, 20 sacks and 2FF is worth a look, thats a FF per 10 sacks and that was if the FF was on the plays where the sacks happened . He never has the awareness to make that type of play, never.  Barrett might not have had as many chances to rush either, since Miller was opposite. 

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Just now, warfelg said:

you could say that Barrett gives you Dupree's production at a fraction of the cost.

You absolutely can, but none of that tells the full story which was my point on sharing stats. 

Shaq has 8 of his sacks against three of the more sack friendly lines and QBs in the league in Cam, the Giants OL, and Goff. 

Eye popping numbers. Really poor opposition. Things a guy has never done in 5 years in the league. 

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1 hour ago, FourThreeMafia said:

A little bit off topic....but Tuzar Skipper had a .5 sack today in very limited playing time.    Not saying that proves anything....but the decision to let him go over Chickilo is just one of many examples of whats wrong with this team.   Skipper was clearly better in preseason, but since they "knew" Chickillo better, they foolishly stuck with him.

This front office has shown a reluctancy to move on from mediocre players.    I mean, eventually they do, but its long after everyone else says they should.   

I thought for sure they would have kept skipper, but of course there is the colbert factor right there.  They failed here, should have cut chickillo, or better yet, never have signed him in the first place. Starters should have been Watt and Ola/Skipper, then take the $13M and spend elsewhere. 

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11 minutes ago, Dcash4 said:

30 teams passed on this guy at 1 year for $4M in a league that desperately needs to get after the passer. Yeah, I’m comfortable in my assessment.

I’m not getting into a “do you even watch Denver games, bro?” Match. I’ve watched my fair share thanks to fantasy ties over the last 4 years. He never stood out and surely never showed out like this. 

Maybe he needed a 5 year head start. Maybe the coaching staff on Tampa has unleashed him.

....maybe it’s an insane 4 game stretch no one saw coming. I’d bank on the 27 year old guy in a worse situation then the one he was in is who we thought he was at the end of the day. 

He whooped Nate Solder for 4 of them....he hasn’t gone through a murders row of LT play. 

He's certainly stood out.  Seriously I don't think this isn't something no one saw coming.  He's an overlooked player.  Happens every year in FA.  And yes this is a "did you ever watch" match because this isn't something stats can show.  

I know PFF can be taken as a grain of salt thing but:
Barrett 2015 - 78.0; 2016 - 84.0; 2017 - 82.6; 2018 - 76.1

Dupree 2015 - 40.5; 2016 - 71.6; 2017 - 56.1; 2018 - 60.4

One guy constantly gets good performances, the other gets average or poor.

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5 minutes ago, warfelg said:

One guy constantly gets good performances, the other gets average or poor.

One guy played sporadically, mostly as a backup, pass rusher on a team with one of the best secondaries in the league during his time and next to the best rusher in the league. 

The other on one of the worst secondaries with a coaching staff that likes to make their linebackers cover too on an absurd rate (though, at least that’s changed some). 

No stats across two players on different teams, in different situations, across different usages are the same

Sack and pressures come easy when all protections shift the other way and your secondary keeps from getting shredded buying you more time...but Shaq never popped like this.. 

Im not trying to compare him to Bud AT ALL. But is THIS 9 sack in 4 games the Shaq you expect to see over the next 3/4th of the season? Or round back into the guy he has always been? He won’t get to see Nate Solder again unfortunately. 

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9 minutes ago, warfelg said:

He's certainly stood out.  Seriously I don't think this isn't something no one saw coming.  He's an overlooked player.  Happens every year in FA.  And yes this is a "did you ever watch" match because this isn't something stats can show.  

I know PFF can be taken as a grain of salt thing but:
Barrett 2015 - 78.0; 2016 - 84.0; 2017 - 82.6; 2018 - 76.1

Dupree 2015 - 40.5; 2016 - 71.6; 2017 - 56.1; 2018 - 60.4

One guy constantly gets good performances, the other gets average or poor.

stats only go so far. With longtime fans, all we have to do is watch and we can tell how the player is in that scheme.  dupree never was a legit starter, and any improvement was minimal over the 5 years.   No suspensions, off field issues, or other negatives that I have read about.  Coaching could be to blame for some of this, just wait IF he goes to another team and see how that goes. Here though, it's not the standard thats for sure. 

Barrett might have been the beneficiary of playing some bad opponents. The season will show who he played well against and who he didn't. Maybe all he needed was to be on a team that moves him around and gets him the snaps in pass rushing.   Arians might have made a good signing there, I doubt he would sign dupree int he offseason either. 

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2 minutes ago, Dcash4 said:

One guy played sporadically, mostly as a backup, pass rusher on a team with one of the best secondaries in the league during his time and next to the best rusher in the league. 

The other on one of the worst secondaries with a coaching staff that likes to make their linebackers cover too on an absurd rate (though, at least that’s changed some). 

No stats across two players on different teams, in different situations, across different usages are the same

Sack and pressures come easy when all protections shift the other way and your secondary keeps from getting shredded buying you more time...but Shaq never popped like this.. 

Im not trying to compare him to Bud AT ALL. But is THIS 9 sack in 4 games the Shaq you expect to see over the next 3/4th of the season? Or round back into the guy he has always been? He won’t get to see Nate Solder again unfortunately. 

he might also get more attention, like JH92 used to get. That happens and when it does, others have to make up for that. 

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2 minutes ago, Dcash4 said:

One guy played sporadically, mostly as a backup, pass rusher on a team with one of the best secondaries in the league during his time and next to the best rusher in the league. 

I bet you see this as he wasn't good enough.  I see it as underutilized.

Quote

The other on one of the worst secondaries with a coaching staff that likes to make their linebackers cover too on an absurd rate (though, at least that’s changed some). 

Believe it or not....the two had similar coverage rates.

Quote

No stats across two players on different teams, in different situations, across different usages are the same

Sack and pressures come easy when all protections shift the other way and your secondary keeps from getting shredded buying you more time...but Shaq never popped like this.. 

Again, I disagree.  He was often used in place of Miller.  They kept him behind Ray, then after his best year he was behind Chubb.

Quote

Im not trying to compare him to Bud AT ALL. But is THIS 9 sack in 4 games the Shaq you expect to see over the next 3/4th of the season? Or round back into the guy he has always been? He won’t get to see Nate Solder again unfortunately. 

No I don't expect him to stay this good all season, but I expect him to be better than Dupree was at any point of his career.  Shaq is an average NFL starting 3-4 OLB.  Dupree certainly is not. This isn't just about comparing him to Bud.  Its about Colbert and how pickups like that used to be his bread and butter.  He hasn't had a FA pick up like that since...Ryan Clark?  2006?  

The stuff he does here are things that show that he's much better than his stats reflect.

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37 minutes ago, warfelg said:

I bet you see this as he wasn't good enough.  I see it as underutilized.

Believe it or not....the two had similar coverage rates.

Again, I disagree.  He was often used in place of Miller.  They kept him behind Ray, then after his best year he was behind Chubb.

No I don't expect him to stay this good all season, but I expect him to be better than Dupree was at any point of his career.  Shaq is an average NFL starting 3-4 OLB.  Dupree certainly is not. This isn't just about comparing him to Bud.  Its about Colbert and how pickups like that used to be his bread and butter.  He hasn't had a FA pick up like that since...Ryan Clark?  2006?  

The stuff he does here are things that show that he's much better than his stats reflect.

Never will see dupree make that play at 3:40.  colbert could have signed him and let his 2 draft picks walk.  Then what does he do with the $13M in cap space saved? Any thoughts?

Edited by 3rivers

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I’ll just go ahead and believe that a YouTube highlight reel will show him doing highlighty things. 

22 minutes ago, warfelg said:

I bet you see this as he wasn't good enough.  I see it as underutilized.

No, I see it as a coaching staff that didn’t believe he needed more PT or only saw him as a part time player. This isn’t a 1 year sample size it’s 4 years after being injured his rookie year.

Maybe he was just underutilized but it could also be the people in those rooms didn’t think he deserved more run than Shane Ray, who was, ya know....Shane Ray. He played over 90% of the snaps in Rays absence at the start on 2017, and he didn’t do much with it.

But I’m out on talking Barrett, because it’s getting me further away from my conversation. 

I think far too many criticisms of Colbert are unfair...this being one of them goin back to the original post saying “it’s not rocket science” with the stats and numbers like all things are equal and we are the only 1 of 32 teams that passed on this guy.

i want Colbert gone, and I have my list of whys....but too many arguments are made in a Steelers vacuum or like giving Colbert 100% of the personnel burden when Tomlin plays a major role in that too because they MUST work in conjunction with each other. 

If you wanna tell me Barrett was worth a flyer of Chickillo or a dice role over Dupree before the season I’m okay with that. Looking back after a guy who’s never been this good and acting like it was a written in stone successful move is unfair. 

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