the order of disapproval

[warfelg]

I was high on him for about 2-3 years now.  Obviously he was a flier guy because of the lack of snaps.  But on the flip side to sit there and act like he should be doing this because of who he's faced....there's a crap ton of massively disappointing players then starting with Chubb/Miller.  Sometimes a player needs someone to believe in him.  Sometimes players have the skill set but because he was undrafted and the guy ahead of him that's worse is a high pick, the guy never gets a chance (wow that sounds familiar doesn't it).  Frankly, no it's not rocket science.  Stop defending a GM who has been average at best, calling it unfair when we talk about his missed opportunities, numerous whiffed drafts, and multiple cap hell seasons.  There's little ti give hope in his abilities.  I mean, just look at the fact since 2004 its a grand total of Tuitt, Juju, Watt as the best players drafted.  A small dip to Conner.  Then a MASSIVE drop-off in terms of production, starts, impact, whatever measuring stick you want to use since it seems there's not a single one that's ever been used that you like.  Colbert is an average at best GM.  I'm sorry, but that's not good enough.  You can be an average GM, but you sure as hell better have a great QB and a top 5 coach to get away with it.  And IMO that only exists on 2 teams, Seattle and NO.  That doesn't happen here.  Ben hasn't been great in 2-3 years.  Tomlin isn't a top 5 coach anymore.  Who knows who had what input on the OC/DC but they have been an unmitigated disaster.  Our depth is next to nothing.  We're never prepared to replace lost players anymore.  God, I long for those early-mid 2000s days where we let Porter walk, and Harrison was there to step up.  We let Foote walk, and there was Timmons to step in.  Who knows, maybe that the coaching staffs fault (I doubt it because we've had plenty of guys do that under Tomlin), maybe it's the CBA's fault (less practice in pads means less development), or maybe it's average/bad drafting catching up to you.

I think it's more than fair to say since 2013, OLB has been a weakness on this team.  We've spent 8 total picks there.

Jarvis Jones - 50 games, 35 starts, 2 INT, 4 FF, 6 sacks

Jordan Zumwalt - Nothing

Anthony Chickillo - 56 games, 9 starts, 0 INT, 3 FF, 7 sacks

Bud Dupree - 57 Games, 42 starts, 1 INT, 2 FF, 21 sacks

Travis Feeney - Nothing

Keion Adams - Nothing

Sutton Smith - Nothing

So 7 picks in a 6 year span gave you a total of 163 games, 86 starts, 3 INT, 9 FF, 34 Sacks.

TJ alone has given us 34 games, 34 starts, 2 INT, 8 FF, 21 sacks.

Yes the fact that 7 of those guys basically combine to give you what one guy gave you in 2 seasons comes from a multitude of reasons, but the fact that some of these guys didn't even make rosters (Zumwalt, Feeney, Smith) and UDFA's beat them out (Ola, Skipper, HoJones) reflects that you have a problem.  I mean we could say the same over the same time span of 13 (13!!) DB's drafted and only 5 remain with the team, and 1 is a bust who can't see the field (Burns), 1 looks like a bust or is always hurt (Davis), 1 can't see the field at all for no reason (Sutton), 1 who we have no clue on (Edmunds) and 1 who isn't dressing (Layne).  So out of 13 picks in the secondary, which one really is showing through?  

I mean this is all coming back to the fact that most this team has been average at best almost across the board when it comes to talent acquisition.  That's why it's a top to bottom issue, but it starts at the top.  Either he's lost touch with drafting, doesn't know what he's looking for, or lets coaches walk all over him.  In any way...that's not good to have from your GM.  And I don't want to fire Tomlin and let this idiot be the one to pick the next coach.  Either every single person goes or you don't let any of them go.  I prefer to just bring in a GM now, tell him he's got 2 years of Ben and Tomlin, then it's yours to do what you want.

[cjfollett]

5 hours ago, FourThreeMafia said:

A little bit off topic....but Tuzar Skipper had a .5 sack today in very limited playing time.    Not saying that proves anything....but the decision to let him go over Chickilo is just one of many examples of whats wrong with this team.   Skipper was clearly better in preseason, but since they "knew" Chickillo better, they foolishly stuck with him.

This front office has shown a reluctancy to move on from mediocre players.    I mean, eventually they do, but its long after everyone else says they should.   

I made the argument on another board that the Steelers could cut Chickillo and keep Skipper, and Chickillo would be available if the Steelers wanted to brig him back. I was basically called an idiot.  I am not the most knowledgeable football fan by a long shot, but I know when I see a player that deserves more PT.  I said the same thing many years ago when the Steelers sat/cut Deebo and played Porter instead.  Oh well, I don't know crap.

[43M]

Just now, cjfollett said:

I made the argument on another board that the Steelers could cut Chickillo and keep Skipper, and Chickillo would be available if the Steelers wanted to brig him back. I was basically called an idiot.  I am not the most knowledgeable football fan by a long shot, but I know when I see a player that deserves more PT.  I said the same thing many years ago when the Steelers sat/cut Deebo and played Porter instead.  Oh well, I don't know crap.

Not sure why anyone would call you an idiot for that.   Very feasible.  I do think there is a chance Chickillo would get picked up, but it's no guarantee.  Even if he did, he is easily replaceable.

[Dcash4]

9 hours ago, warfelg said:

Jordan Zumwalt - Nothing

Anthony Chickillo - 56 games, 9 starts, 0 INT, 3 FF, 7 sacks

Travis Feeney - Nothing

Keion Adams - Nothing

Sutton Smith - Nothing

but the fact that some of these guys didn't even make rosters (Zumwalt, Feeney, Smith) and UDFA's beat them out (Ola, Skipper, HoJones) reflects that you have a problem

This stuff, man. This is the unfair stuff I'm talking about. You have listed here 4 6th round picks, a 7th round pick and your banging Colbert for not making this work. Show me the 31 other teams that are not failing here too. 

Its the side switching of blaming Colbert I argue against, not that he has been great or even good for that matter. But the same people that will bash Jarvis Jones selection are the same ones harping that "we need to look at their production in college!". You have now put it down that Colbert should just be overruling moves or that he gets walked over my his staff too much - so he is either not making all the decisions (something you have seemed to get at before) or he is allowing everyone else to make those decisions and sitting on his hands. I mean common man, your nitpicking anything and everything to place blame on Colbert. You even went as far as to blame him for Sutton, Samuels, and Washington being in the doghouse? You gotta tell me how that works? It's the same as blaming Colbert for Ola not playing over Chick. Its the same as the people who loooooved what Munchack (a good coach) did with the talent acquired by Colbert, but ohhh boy dont you dare say anything about the defensive talent not improving under coaching. Its not coachings faults, its Colberts (but only when its convenient to say that).

There is a larger draft discussion to have when not counting guys like Bryant and James as picks or not considering trading guys for additional picks (Hawkins, Coates, Dobbs), but I dont want to get in the weeds of the draft. 

At the end of the day you place the blame solely on Colbert. I believe Tomlin is farrrrrr more involved in the personnel decisions...because most HCs are, especially ones that have been around this long. There are too many signs that point to Tomlin having a hand in this mess. Tomlin has say in the coaching staff. Tomlin has say in the roster construction and talent acquisition. Tomlin has all the say in gameday roster decisions. You have at one point in this thread paragraphs on other peoples failures but Tomlin? Ahhh he just isnt working with anything...though he has a hand to play in the selection of both the staff, the players, and how the players are used. 

Its absolutely time for a change. We HAVE missed too much high in the draft because we seem to be looking for projects we can mold and have failed to do that. We haven't figured out how to be aggressive in FA while staying under the cap carrying a franchise QB (going after rookie deal guys with mid/low picks would be a great start). We shouldn't bring back guys like Foster and Chickillo for "expensive" deals. 

Colbert should be out, but Tomlin bears some of this load as well and should be held just as responsible at some level. 

[warfelg]

I’m sorry but how is it unfair? It’s not like I’m picking 1 year and banging on it. I’m looking at all his picks over time at a position and seeing misses. 
 

I mean, if you view looking at everything as unfair it’s not worth continuing to discuss. I guess we should only judge on the first 2-3 rounds now?

[Dcash4]

6 minutes ago, warfelg said:

I’m sorry but how is it unfair? It’s not like I’m picking 1 year and banging on it. I’m looking at all his picks over time at a position and seeing misses. 

I mean, if you view looking at everything as unfair it’s not worth continuing to discuss. I guess we should only judge on the first 2-3 rounds now?

Because you are unwilling to add how difficult the draft is into the equation and consider 6th round pick failures to be equal in someway or like its not the norm of this league. 

Missing on guys basically after round 3 isnt shocking. Hell, its not even shocking before that round. But your judging failure and using a list of 6th round picks as a "GOTCHA!" argument....yeah, that's unfair.

If you are complaining about missing on 6th round picks and that being a key metric in your firing of Colbert. Hold onto your golf hat, because your gonna hate the next guy too. 

[warfelg]

15 minutes ago, Dcash4 said:

This stuff, man. This is the unfair stuff I'm talking about. You have listed here 4 6th round picks, a 7th round pick and your banging Colbert for not making this work. Show me the 31 other teams that are not failing here too. 

Ok then I need the line on what's ok to judge the GM by.  We can't judge him on late round picks?  Why not?  Almost any GM or FO executive will tell you those mid-late round picks are more important to hit on because of cost and roster construction.  I mean 4 of those guys didn't even play a single snap.  And now what's crazy....around the league round 4-7 players account for 23% of starters (in general) and a round 4-7 pick has a 73% chance of making a roster.

Quote

Its the side switching of blaming Colbert I argue against, not that he has been great or even good for that matter. But the same people that will bash Jarvis Jones selection are the same ones harping that "we need to look at their production in college!".

I've never switched side on blaming him.  He ignored red flags on Jarvis Jones.  Just because we say "you need to look at the production" doesn't mean you stare at stats.  Your sitting there talking about how you can't look at all stats the same because of how they are produced, and don't really say the same thing on the topic of drafting.  Lately we've been high on guys with high SPARQ scores, but don't have production on the field to reflect that athleticism.  I mean frankly, Edmunds is an impressive physical specimen, but it resulted in 196 tackles, 1.5 sacks, 6 INT, 14 PD, 0 FF in 35 career college games.  So why didn't it translate?  Something is missing in the entire process here.  And if we want to say all coaching stuff falls under Tomlin, it's fair to say that all scouting stuff falls under Colbert, no?

Quote

You have now put it down that Colbert should just be overruling moves or that he gets walked over my his staff too much - so he is either not making all the decisions (something you have seemed to get at before) or he is allowing everyone else to make those decisions and sitting on his hands. I mean common man, your nitpicking anything and everything to place blame on Colbert.

How is that nitpicking? Seriously.  Either he's slipped as a talent evaluator, or someone is having a greater pull than him.  

Quote

You even went as far as to blame him for Sutton, Samuels, and Washington being in the doghouse? You gotta tell me how that works? It's the same as blaming Colbert for Ola not playing over Chick.

I didn't blame him for the doghouse stuff.  I said I don't get it.  I think Washington and Sutton are good players getting the shaft.  

Quote

Its the same as the people who loooooved what Munchack (a good coach) did with the talent acquired by Colbert, but ohhh boy dont you dare say anything about the defensive talent not improving under coaching. Its not coachings faults, its Colberts (but only when its convenient to say that).

I've said plenty about our defensive coaching staff being crap at developing players.  But at the same time, it's not one or two guys here or there that it's an issue with.  It's been a consistent issue.

Quote

There is a larger draft discussion to have when not counting guys like Bryant and James as picks or not considering trading guys for additional picks (Hawkins, Coates, Dobbs), but I dont want to get in the weeds of the draft. 

Are they on the team anymore?  No.  So why bother talking about them?  Also the Bryant trade and Cockrell trade turned into Mason Rudolph.  Jury is out on him.  

BTW that Coates one is fun.  We traded a 6th to Cleveland for Justin Gilbert, that 6th was traded back to us for Coates and a 7th, and that 6th was then sent to Tampa for JJ Wilcox.

Traded Dobbs for a 5th, which was traded for Vannett.  So jury out there.

Hawkins, who's been oft hurt, is a 4th rounder we flipped with a 7th for a 6th in 2021.  So who knows what that is.

Quote

At the end of the day you place the blame solely on Colbert. I believe Tomlin is farrrrrr more involved in the personnel decisions...because most HCs are, especially ones that have been around this long. There are too many signs that point to Tomlin having a hand in this mess. Tomlin has say in the coaching staff. Tomlin has say in the roster construction and talent acquisition. Tomlin has all the say in gameday roster decisions. You have at one point in this thread paragraphs on other peoples failures but Tomlin? Ahhh he just isnt working with anything...though he has a hand to play in the selection of both the staff, the players, and how the players are used. 

No I place it on all parties.  But if Colbert isn't that bad, why not cut back Tomlin's role in player selection?  Wouldn't that be the 'easy' way to get back on track?

Quote

Its absolutely time for a change. We HAVE missed too much high in the draft because we seem to be looking for projects we can mold and have failed to do that. We haven't figured out how to be aggressive in FA while staying under the cap carrying a franchise QB (going after rookie deal guys with mid/low picks would be a great start). We shouldn't bring back guys like Foster and Chickillo for "expensive" deals. 

Colbert should be out, but Tomlin bears some of this load as well and should be held just as responsible at some level. 

Oh so what I've been saying all along...

[warfelg]

33 minutes ago, Dcash4 said:

Because you are unwilling to add how difficult the draft is into the equation and consider 6th round pick failures to be equal in someway or like its not the norm of this league. 

Missing on guys basically after round 3 isnt shocking. Hell, its not even shocking before that round. But your judging failure and using a list of 6th round picks as a "GOTCHA!" argument....yeah, that's unfair.

If you are complaining about missing on 6th round picks and that being a key metric in your firing of Colbert. Hold onto your golf hat, because your gonna hate the next guy too. 

All the times I've shown statistically that we're hitting at a lower rate in rounds 4-7 and it's the 'not admitting how difficult it is to draft'?

Missing on guys after the 3rd isn't shocking.  But break it down some: 26% of current NFL starters were drafted rounds 4-7; 14% were undrafted.  

All drafted players have  75% chance of making an NFL roster.  From 2013-18 (so basically players starting their 2nd contract), we've had 48 draft picks, and 21 of them are on a roster.  Even over that time span there's a 65% chance of staying on a roster.  We've got 56% of them on an NFL roster.  I mean we are routinely just slightly behind when it comes to those rounds.  This isn't picking out one or two guys or positions here or there.  This is an in general we are struggling with later round picks.  And guess what....you hit here or there a little more frequently on those guys and you don't have to pay Chickillo $6.5mil next year because you have someone for $600K to do the same job.  Instead of having to sign Alualu to a 2 year $6mil contract, you got a cheap backup option.

Next year, Vince Williams/Mark Barron/Chickillo combine to make $21mil.  It's not 'gotcha' to say that maybe, just maybe, if we did slightly better at a mid-late round pick; or maybe even a 2nd or 3rd round pick were different; that we wouldn't be spending that much on 3 LB's that frankly aren't worth that much on your cap.  

Yes it may seem insignificant to talk about a few missed late round picks here and there; and it may seem 'gotcha' to you; but missing on those pick cause you to spend elsewhere.  Even if Adams and Feeney made the team as ST players, their combined salaries would have been $1.2million this year.  Lets you get away with letting Chickillo walk and saving a total of $7mil on your cap which could be used elsewhere.

[Dcash4]

13 minutes ago, warfelg said:

Oh so what I've been saying all along...

You get I literally have never said that getting ride of Colbert is wrong? I'm all for it. I want the change. I welcome it...

...I hate your arguments. You pick them because you HATE Colbert. You want the black and white of wrongness but wont live in the grey. 

Deleted a bunch of others stuff because you posted again and I like it. 

17 minutes ago, warfelg said:

All drafted players have  75% chance of making an NFL roster.  From 2013-18 (so basically players starting their 2nd contract), we've had 48 draft picks, and 21 of them are on a roster.  Even over that time span there's a 65% chance of staying on a roster.  We've got 56% of them on an NFL roster.  I mean we are routinely just slightly behind when it comes to those rounds.  This isn't picking out one or two guys or positions here or there.  This is an in general we are struggling with later round picks.  And guess what....you hit here or there a little more frequently on those guys and you don't have to pay Chickillo $6.5mil next year because you have someone for $600K to do the same job.  Instead of having to sign Alualu to a 2 year $6mil contract, you got a cheap backup option.

Next year, Vince Williams/Mark Barron/Chickillo combine to make $21mil.  It's not 'gotcha' to say that maybe, just maybe, if we did slightly better at a mid-late round pick; or maybe even a 2nd or 3rd round pick were different; that we wouldn't be spending that much on 3 LB's that frankly aren't worth that much on your cap.  

Yes it may seem insignificant to talk about a few missed late round picks here and there; and it may seem 'gotcha' to you; but missing on those pick cause you to spend elsewhere.  Even if Adams and Feeney made the team as ST players, their combined salaries would have been $1.2million this year.  Lets you get away with letting Chickillo walk and saving a total of $7mil on your cap which could be used elsewhere.

I really like this post, and think its one of your best on the subject of drafting because it got rid of the Colbert hate and just provided stats based against the NFL at large and where we fall in that. 

The number still tell a flawed story, but all in all your absolutely right -- the difference in 2-3 picks makes a world of difference for roster construction, specifically when you play as close to the cap thanks to a franchise QB as we do. To touch on the bold, I dont view it as insignificant to miss late, but its a far lower measuring stick for me against success so when I see a list of 5 guys drafted in the 6th and 7th round and that pointing to be the flaw, there's where I believe its unfair to hang a hat on the argument of not being able to recognize talent. 

We have missed twice at the position in my eyes. Once with a guy not athletic enough to hang in the NFL while being uber productive, and the other being uber athletic but not productive enough to hang in the NFL. I don't see them missing there and then guys like Feeney and Adams being the same. I also dont see guys like that not making the roster to even be baseline STers being fully Colberts responsibility since Tomlin shows over, and over, and over again his unwillingess to want to play (or even keep) guys like Ola, Tuzar, Howard, etc even if they clearly show reason to be kept around or used. 

[Magnus-Viktor]

On 9/29/2019 at 4:51 PM, warfelg said:

I'm sorry but outside of Brown, who's been all these "antics off the field" guys?

 

Bell (smoking pot and not knowing he could get arrested for driving while high) along with suspensions.   Brown, Porter (on the field, but as a coach, so same difference), there was drama with Harrison in the past, etc.  It's been one big sh!t show after another with Tommy Boy's worthless butt as coach.  Brown repeatedly = same difference as many.  recording the locker room.  His celebrating penalties ON the field.  His running of the mouth.  The list goes on and on.  You let ONE loser get away with it it infects the entire team and you get penalties as if you're the Raiders!  This really says it all:  

 

Jesse James on leaving behind the drama in the Steelers locker room:

"Yeah, I'm glad to get away from it.

[Chieferific]

Given recent events, it would appear to me Tomlin did a pretty good job "handling" Brown all things considered. 

Edited October 1, 2019 by Chieferific

[warfelg]

2 hours ago, Magnus-Viktor said:

 

Bell (smoking pot and not knowing he could get arrested for driving while high) along with suspensions.   Brown, Porter (on the field, but as a coach, so same difference), there was drama with Harrison in the past, etc.  It's been one big sh!t show after another with Tommy Boy's worthless butt as coach.  Brown repeatedly = same difference as many.  recording the locker room.  His celebrating penalties ON the field.  His running of the mouth.  The list goes on and on.  You let ONE loser get away with it it infects the entire team and you get penalties as if you're the Raiders!  This really says it all:  

 

Jesse James on leaving behind the drama in the Steelers locker room:

"Yeah, I'm glad to get away from it.

I'm sorry but no.  You can blame Tomlin for a lot of things, but blaming him for things players/coaches do when they aren't in the building is about as stupid as stupid can get.

You give your kid the keys to the car, and they get in an accident changing the radio station.  Is that your fault for giving them the keys or their fault for not paying attention to the road?

[Magnus-Viktor]

On 10/1/2019 at 7:02 AM, warfelg said:

I'm sorry but no.  You can blame Tomlin for a lot of things, but blaming him for things players/coaches do when they aren't in the building is about as stupid as stupid can get.

You give your kid the keys to the car, and they get in an accident changing the radio station.  Is that your fault for giving them the keys or their fault for not paying attention to the road?

 

So you're going to ignore the penalties and them turning into the Raiders?  You're going to ignore Brown recording them in the locker room?  The constant penalties for celebrating?  He repeatedly drafted morons off the field who were also morons on the field, and he let the inmates run the asylum.  That's on him.  You might make an exception for Bell's pot and some other things, but a lot of that was conduct detrimental to the team, and he allowed it to blossom into a full blown nightmare, on and off the field.  That's all on him.

[kurgan]

On 10/1/2019 at 8:02 AM, warfelg said:

'm sorry but no.  You can blame Tomlin for a lot of things, but blaming him for things players/coaches do when they aren't in the building is about as stupid as stupid can get.

You give your kid the keys to the car, and they get in an accident changing the radio station.  Is that your fault for giving them the keys or their fault for not paying attention to the road?

The point is... both.  You were a part of the team that brought that nonsense into the building.  Now, the other side of the coin is you have been a part of it that took that nonsense out of the building.  Still, same rule applies.  I can blame Tomlin and Colbert for putting up with the nonsense of Bell, Brown, Porter, etc, but also give them credit for getting rid of all of them.  Also, the cops would blame the kid, but your insurance sure as hell blames you.

1 hour ago, Magnus-Viktor said:

That's all on him.

I am not ready to say it is all on him.  Tomlin can only coach the guys he has.  He is not his own GM like a lot of coaches.  Can he put his foot down???  Maybe... it seemed like it last year in Week 17 when he benched him, but how far does that go??

Just my own spin, I can tell you as a coach, cancers in a lockerroom spread.  One kid gets away with something, the next kid escalates, and so on.  You may end up having to deal with the 5th kid, but the problem started with the first one.  The only thing you can do is either punish them all, or punish none of them.  Pro sports is different, but how many Steelers started acting like jerks because they saw AB and Bell do what they want??  Hard to tell.

[3rivers]

I am expecting this thread to slow down, as a result of a win streak Lets hope, I know this team isn't easy to figure out weekly, but as long as they win and keep opponents in the loss column it's a good (new)  beginning to the 2019 season. The schedule doesn't look that bad right now anyways. The first 3 games might have been the most difficult.