Dave Gettleman and the Giants rebuild

[SkippyX]

4 minutes ago, minutemancl said:

Imagine spending this much time cherry picking stats to try and prove a rival teams' first round picks aren't actually that good. 

Cherry picking is only counting the Tampa game

Jones is not a top 6 pick and 1 game in Tampa won by a missed FG does not change that.

Teddy sure looked elite this week against that same Tampa team. Maybe they should have traded the 6th overall pick for Teddy?

 

The football world was right that Gettleman was a fool to make that pick.

[SkippyX]

9 minutes ago, Forge said:

In interest of Fairness, Lawrence did have a sack (or half a sack) that was negated via penalty. 

In the same fairness the 7th overall pick, Josh Allen, had a sack, 2 QB hits, and a tackle for loss.

[Forge]

2 minutes ago, SkippyX said:

In the same fairness the 7th overall pick, Josh Allen, had a sack, 2 QB hits, and a tackle for loss.

Those two things have nothing to do with one another. Josh Allen wasnt available where they picked Lawrence.

You want to talk about Allen's performance with regards to Jones and juxtapose that, I get it, but shouldn't apply to Lawrence. 

[SkippyX]

12 minutes ago, Forge said:

Those two things have nothing to do with one another. Josh Allen wasnt available where they picked Lawrence.

You want to talk about Allen's performance with regards to Jones and juxtapose that, I get it, but shouldn't apply to Lawrence. 

Allen was on the board when they picked Jones.

Jones was very likely to be available at 17. 

You take Allen at 6 and have your stud pass rusher for the next 10 years.

You then take Jones at 17, or trade up to 14 or something if your delusions of DC wanting him are too strong.

 

The people who are on the defend Jones at all costs attack don't even understand how the draft works.

Gettleman was not just picking a QB, he was trying to build his team through the draft.

Allen, Lawrence, and Jones are tied together forever over his blunder.

 

Its undisputed that the 7th and 178th picks are better and more impactful players than the 6th and 17th picks as of today.

Those other guys do play in New York though and Tampa did miss that FG.

 

Edited October 6, 2019 by SkippyX

[Thelonebillsfan]

You wanna talk spicy when he plays well you gotta be in here to take your lumps when he's dookie my guy.

[minutemancl]

5 minutes ago, Thelonebillsfan said:

You wanna talk spicy when he plays well you gotta be in here to take your lumps when he's dookie my guy.

Jones was only "dookie" if you are box score scouting. 

[Forge]

Just now, SkippyX said:

Allen was on the board when they picked Jones.

Jones was very likely to be available at 17. 

You take Allen at 6 and have your stud pass rusher for the next 10 years.

You then take Jones at 17, or trade up to 14 or something if your delusions of DC wanting him are too strong.

 

The people who are on the defend Jones at all costs attack don't even understand how the draft works.

Gettleman was not just picking a QB, he was trying to build his team through the draft.

Allen, Lawrence, and Jones are tied together forever over his blunder.

 

Its undisputed that the 7th and 178th picks are better and more impactful players than the 6th and 17th picks.

Those other guys do play in New York though and Tampa did miss that FG.

 

No, I'm with you on debating the merits of taking Allen over Jones. I didn't like Jones enough at 6 to make that pick. I'd have rather taken the shot that Jones fell a little and then even made a small trade up to secure him if necessary

And honestly, didn't love the Lawrence pick. I'm not a fan of taking guys that high who are unlikely to ever play much more than 50% of your defensive snaps.

I just don't think it's fair to contrast Lawrence and Allen. Honestly, they could have taken them both. And I do think that it's at least important to mention the sack today if you're going to denigrate the performance. Does a sack really make the game he had any better? I don't know. But I think it needs to be mentioned. 

[SkippyX]

I honestly don't hate Jones as a QB prospect, but he was not a generational talent.

Taking him at 17 would have been a bit of a reach... but he's a QB so OK.

Take him at 28 and no one blinks.

Taking him at 6 was absurd and that is 100% on the GM... not Jones.

 

The problem is that the people criticizing Gettleman are playing chess and the NY must defend Jones bros are playing checkers with half the pieces missing.

[minutemancl]

Really can't stand this box score scouting. Trying to back up your point without watching the game and by only looking at the box score with no context is absolutely worthless.

We want to talk about Jones and Lawrence? Cool, let a guy who has watched every game that have played in (multiple times) tell you how they are performing. 

Everything was working against the Giants in this game: they were down to their 3rd and 4th RBs and down their top 5 LBs in this one. Vikings took advantage and jumped out to an early lead. Once Gallman left the game with a concussion, our running game was non existent. Solder struggled mightily, as did most of the OL once the Vikings front 7 could pin their ears back, as every down was a passing down. The Vikings offense moved the ball at will, thanks to a starting LB corps of David Mayo, Nate Stupar, Tuzar Skipper, and Oshane Ximines.

The Vikings made their living today off of screens, bootleg crossers, and running the ball. They got Cousins out of the pocket and relied on picking apart our zone coverage as Thielen in particular ran against the field and found himself open. Football 101- those long developing crossing routes destroy zone coverage when the quarterback has time, and with the lack of potent edge rushers, there was no pressure. When Cousins sat in the pocket, Dexter Lawrence, RJ McIntosh, and Dalvin Tomlinson regularly collapsed the pocket against a subpar Vikings interior line. Lawrence played well today, just like he has the past few games when given extended playing time/more snaps. He had a sack today, and it was not negated by penalty, like someone said it was. Worth noting that Dexter Lawrence, besides being a good run defender, has the 2nd best pass rushing efficiency among all interior defenders, behind only Calais Campbell according to PFF. He regularly generates pressures and has been converting those into sacks. 

DJ missed an open Shepard early in the game that should have resulted in a touchdown. His arm got hit resulting in a slight overthrow. He's gotta hit that regardless. He also overthrew Shepard in the endzone in the second quarter- Shepard couldn't bring the ball down inbounds. He knew he missed that one; it was obvious by his body language immediately after he let the ball go. Other than those 2 throws, he played well. Shepard and Engram dropped a lot of balls today, Solder had multiple holding penalties, and he let up a few sacks as well. One of those drops was a touchdown by Shepard. Hes got to hang on to that. DJ stayed tough in the pocket and was accurate all night despite seeing pressure and tight coverage on almost every play after the first quarter. The biggest issue was, once the game was more or less out of hand and Gallman was ruled out with a concussion, the threat of the run was nonexistent. The Vikings front 7 trumps our OL by... a lot. They pinned their ears back and got after Jones. His one interception was on 4th down in garbage time. Anthony Barr sought out Jones after the game to talk to him; Everson Griffen made it a point to acknowledge in his postgame press conference, unprompted, that DJ played tough today. Giants were straight up outmanned today.

The Vikings roster is overall much more talented than the Giants, and the injuries the Giants were dealing with today made that even more obvious. Trying to use this game's box score to prove DJ and Lawrence were bad picks is stupid. Those 2 players were hardly the reason the Giants lost this game today. Watch the game and try to tell me otherwise. 

[MrOaktown_56]

Daniel Jones is just fine. Wait for him to get a big time receiver in next year's draft and he'll make a leap.

[SotanKing]

Jones had a pretty decent game today even though his box score might look below par. It was a very tough game for him...Vikings were also blitzing a lot and he did read the blitzes pretty well. Had some very good throws into tight windows. I am impressed by him so far.

[RandyMossIsBoss]

 

7 hours ago, minutemancl said:

We want to talk about Jones and Lawrence? Cool, let a guy who has watched every game that have played in (multiple times) tell you how they are performing. 

Yeah we should definitely value your very objective and unbiased opinion here...

 

 

(fwiw I was with Giants fans today so was watching both games, thought Jones played good, but only in the context of being a rookie. His deep ball was impressive for anyone, though... but hey, I've got a horse in this race too, so would advise people to look themselves)

[TecmoSuperJoe]

8 hours ago, minutemancl said:

Really can't stand this box score scouting. Trying to back up your point without watching the game and by only looking at the box score with no context is absolutely worthless.

We want to talk about Jones and Lawrence? Cool, let a guy who has watched every game that have played in (multiple times) tell you how they are performing. 

Everything was working against the Giants in this game: they were down to their 3rd and 4th RBs and down their top 5 LBs in this one. Vikings took advantage and jumped out to an early lead. Once Gallman left the game with a concussion, our running game was non existent. Solder struggled mightily, as did most of the OL once the Vikings front 7 could pin their ears back, as every down was a passing down. The Vikings offense moved the ball at will, thanks to a starting LB corps of David Mayo, Nate Stupar, Tuzar Skipper, and Oshane Ximines.

The Vikings made their living today off of screens, bootleg crossers, and running the ball. They got Cousins out of the pocket and relied on picking apart our zone coverage as Thielen in particular ran against the field and found himself open. Football 101- those long developing crossing routes destroy zone coverage when the quarterback has time, and with the lack of potent edge rushers, there was no pressure. When Cousins sat in the pocket, Dexter Lawrence, RJ McIntosh, and Dalvin Tomlinson regularly collapsed the pocket against a subpar Vikings interior line. Lawrence played well today, just like he has the past few games when given extended playing time/more snaps. He had a sack today, and it was not negated by penalty, like someone said it was. Worth noting that Dexter Lawrence, besides being a good run defender, has the 2nd best pass rushing efficiency among all interior defenders, behind only Calais Campbell according to PFF. He regularly generates pressures and has been converting those into sacks. 

DJ missed an open Shepard early in the game that should have resulted in a touchdown. His arm got hit resulting in a slight overthrow. He's gotta hit that regardless. He also overthrew Shepard in the endzone in the second quarter- Shepard couldn't bring the ball down inbounds. He knew he missed that one; it was obvious by his body language immediately after he let the ball go. Other than those 2 throws, he played well. Shepard and Engram dropped a lot of balls today, Solder had multiple holding penalties, and he let up a few sacks as well. One of those drops was a touchdown by Shepard. Hes got to hang on to that. DJ stayed tough in the pocket and was accurate all night despite seeing pressure and tight coverage on almost every play after the first quarter. The biggest issue was, once the game was more or less out of hand and Gallman was ruled out with a concussion, the threat of the run was nonexistent. The Vikings front 7 trumps our OL by... a lot. They pinned their ears back and got after Jones. His one interception was on 4th down in garbage time. Anthony Barr sought out Jones after the game to talk to him; Everson Griffen made it a point to acknowledge in his postgame press conference, unprompted, that DJ played tough today. Giants were straight up outmanned today.

The Vikings roster is overall much more talented than the Giants, and the injuries the Giants were dealing with today made that even more obvious. Trying to use this game's box score to prove DJ and Lawrence were bad picks is stupid. Those 2 players were hardly the reason the Giants lost this game today. Watch the game and try to tell me otherwise. 

PFF's take. 

Quote

Rookie Takeaways

This was another tough game for Daniel Jones. While throws like his touchdown pass to Slayton are ones Giants fans salivate over, he also had a couple of turnover-worthy throws even before his late-game interception. Almost half of Jones’ completions came behind the line of scrimmage, and he didn’t show very good accuracy on anything beyond five yards downfield.

 

Edited October 7, 2019 by PapaShogun

[Gmen]

14 hours ago, Thelonebillsfan said:

You wanna talk spicy when he plays well you gotta be in here to take your lumps when he's dookie my guy.

I’m here. The Giants didn’t have a great showing. I didn’t expect a win against the Vikings. They have a top 5 defense going  in, against a team that was trying to run the ball with their fullback due to injuries. The Giants were forced to be very one dimensional and the Vikings feasted. On the other side of the ball the Giants had 3rd string linebackers missing tackles against a top 5 running back. It was a recipe for disaster from the start. Shockingly, we don’t expect a win against the Patriots on TNF either. But with the schedule lightening up, they could be 5-5 at the bye week. That would be great for a young team with a rookie quarterback. 

[minutemancl]

10 hours ago, upriser7 said:

Jones had a pretty decent game today even though his box score might look below par. It was a very tough game for him...Vikings were also blitzing a lot and he did read the blitzes pretty well. Had some very good throws into tight windows. I am impressed by him so far.

Right on. It's the little things you gotta look for in a rookie's first few starts, especially when some of those come against good defenses like it did today. PFF is looking for QBs to make throws down the field into tight coverage and grades them poorly if they don't. I want to see Jones recognize where the pressure is coming from pre-snap. I want to see Jones go through multiple reads and deliver an accurate ball to his checkdown. I want to see Jones take a hit or deliver a bad ball and bounce back. I want to see Jones throw the ball away or take a sack when it is the right thing to do. I also want to see him taking advantage of when things go right and show he can take over a game and win it himself. He definitely made mistakes yesterday, but he showed me all of the things I wanted to see.