Thoughts and Observations: Week 5 Raiders

[abstract_thought]

While Nagy can help with Trubisky's development, I ultimately pin the success or failure of that move on Ryan Pace. It was his decision to draft a QB with a lame-duck head coach. It was his decision to bring Mitch along behind Mike Glennon. It was his decision to bring in Nagy, Daniel, Sanchez, et al. to facilitate Mitch's development.

This is Ryan Pace's plan. And while the early returns from using cap space to acquire veterans gave the Bears a quick turnaround, Pace will need to answer for the limited long-term ceiling of this team.

[dll2000]

On 10/13/2019 at 9:10 AM, abstract_thought said:

While Nagy can help with Trubisky's development, I ultimately pin the success or failure of that move on Ryan Pace. It was his decision to draft a QB with a lame-duck head coach. It was his decision to bring Mitch along behind Mike Glennon. It was his decision to bring in Nagy, Daniel, Sanchez, et al. to facilitate Mitch's development.

This is Ryan Pace's plan. And while the early returns from using cap space to acquire veterans gave the Bears a quick turnaround, Pace will need to answer for the limited long-term ceiling of this team.

He gambled on potential at QB and lost.  Simple as that.   It turned out terrible (given that we could have had Mahomes or Watson who look much better now), but the reasoning and scouting of it at time wasn't bad or stupid.

MT was an athletic and smart QB with a strong accurate arm, positive attitude and good work ethic.  Coaches loved him.  High character.  Checked all boxes except experience.  

Watson was a player who played like he was going to get hurt, didn't always show great accuracy and was playing on a loaded team(s) so it was hard to tell if it was him or the team.   

Mahomes was coming from a system where literally every other guy who played like that and in that system had failed miserably at next level to date.  There was a lot of built in bias there based off a pattern. 

As far as Fox, he got saddled with Fox and co. when he was hired and had to ride that to its fruition.  

I firmly believe that given the choice at time of draft Reid would have taken Trubisky over Mahomes or Watson if he was picking between all three.  They didn't want to spend what it would take to jump that high.    I think about 1/2 the people would and most everyone else liked Watson the best.   Mahomes was third for most people.   Revisionist history says different, but that doesn't change the fact.

Look at Floyd.  Giants wanted him bad.  Bears jumped them.  Sometimes you get lucky when you miss out on a guy you wanted.

Look at R. Smith.   If he doesn't get his head screwed back on from whatever the problem is, then that pick will look bad too.  But the scouting of it wasn't bad.

Sometimes its just bad luck.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[topwop1]

12 minutes ago, dll2000 said:

He gambled on potential at QB and lost.  Simple as that.   It turned out terrible (given that we could have had Mahomes or Watson who look much better now), but the reasoning and scouting of it at time wasn't bad or stupid.

MT was an athletic and smart QB with a strong accurate arm, positive attitude and good work ethic.  Coaches loved him.  High character.  Checked all boxes except experience.  

Watson was a player who played like he was going to get hurt, didn't always show great accuracy and was playing on a loaded team(s) so it was hard to tell if it was him or the team.   

Mahomes was coming from a system where literally every other guy who played like that and in that system had failed miserably at next level to date.  There was a lot of built in bias there based off a pattern. 

As far as Fox, he got saddled with Fox and co. when he was hired and had to ride that to its fruition.  

I firmly believe that given the choice at time of draft Reid would have taken Trubisky over Mahomes or Watson if he was picking between all three.  They didn't want to spend what it would take to jump that high.    I think about 1/2 the people would and most everyone else liked Watson the best.   Mahomes was third for most people.   Revisionist history says different, but that doesn't change the fact.

Look at Floyd.  Giants wanted him bad.  Bears jumped them.  Sometimes you get lucky when you miss out on a guy you wanted.

Look at R. Smith.   If he doesn't get his head screwed back on from whatever the problem is, then that pick will look bad too.  But the scouting of it wasn't bad.

Sometimes its just bad luck.

So are you suggesting Mitch is already a bust and that he has no chance to turn it around so that it won't look terrible on Pace for gambling on him?

Also same thing for Floyd?  Considering the Giants took Eli Apple instead I wouldn't say they got lucky.  I mean Apple is serviceable but he's not even on the Giants any more and Floyd has been the better NFL player thus far in their respective careers.

Edited October 18, 2019 by topwop1

[dll2000]

38 minutes ago, topwop1 said:

So are you suggesting Mitch is already a bust and that he has no chance to turn it around so that it won't look terrible on Pace for gambling on him?

Also same thing for Floyd?  Considering the Giants took Eli Apple instead I wouldn't say they got lucky.  I mean Apple is serviceable but he's not even on the Giants any more and Floyd has been the better NFL player thus far in their respective careers.

No, I am not prepared to call him a bust, but he has not succeeded yet.  I think this year was to be measuring stick and he came out bad and O line and TEs came out bad.  Then he got hurt.  So kind of an incomplete at this time, but not looking great.  

At this juncture I think Mahomes and Watson are clearly the much, much better football players.  It would be tough to argue otherwise.  

I think Floyd is looking like a relative bust.  Decent football player, but a bust for where he was drafted and what he was drafted for.  But for presence of Mack people would talking a lot more about him in a bad way.  If MT career ended today he would be a bust.  He has rest of this season and possibly next to get it turned.   If Shaheen career ended today he would be a bust, odds are not looking good for him. 

Roquan Smith is playing bad last two games.  I hope he snaps out of it because he was looking like he was trending toward greatness and whatever is bothering him is making him look like a bum.

Throw in Kevin White and we may have had a really bad run of first round picks.   Maybe we should just trade our first rounders for high character great veterans like Mack.

 

 

[topwop1]

15 minutes ago, dll2000 said:

No, I am not prepared to call him a bust, but he has not succeeded yet.  I think this year was to be measuring stick and he came out bad and O line and TEs came out bad.  Then he got hurt.  So kind of an incomplete at this time, but not looking great.  

At this juncture I think Mahomes and Watson are clearly the much, much better football players.  It would be tough to argue otherwise.  

I think Floyd is looking like a relative bust.  Decent football player, but a bust for where he was drafted and what he was drafted for.  But for presence of Mack people would talking a lot more about him in a bad way.  If MT career ended today he would be a bust.  He has rest of this season and possibly next to get it turned.   If Shaheen career ended today he would be a bust, odds are not looking good for him. 

Roquan Smith is playing bad last two games.  I hope he snaps out of it because he was looking like he was trending toward greatness and whatever is bothering him is making him look like a bum.

Throw in Kevin White and we may have had a really bad run of first round picks.   Maybe we should just trade our first rounders for high character great veterans like Mack.

 

 

That would be ideal but high value position players of his caliber and character aren't made available very often my friend.

Agreed with you on if their careers ended today for Mitch and Shaheen.. they'd be labeled busts.  And no question on Mahomes or Watson but I'm tired of thinking of what could have been.  It is what it is now...just have to hope Mitch can develop the way the organization intended him to.

I already think Shaheen is a bust similar to Kevin White.  It's so hard for him to stay healthy and when he is he hasn't shown or done much. Looking like a bad pick.

I may be in the minority but I think Floyd is a good football player.  He may not be a star I'm fine with the return we got from him.

Roquan's recent play hasn't been stellar but we've all seen glimpses of what he can do.  No question on the talent more so if he has the head for the game. 

[Sugashane]

1 hour ago, dll2000 said:

  Maybe we should just trade our first rounders for high character great veterans like Mack.

Antonio Brown is a free agent my friend. lol

[dll2000]

3 hours ago, Sugashane said:

Antonio Brown is a free agent my friend. lol

He's a character too.

[dll2000]

3 hours ago, Sugashane said:

Antonio Brown is a free agent my friend. lol

Can he block the edge? 

[dll2000]

Or play LT? 

[Sugashane]

17 minutes ago, dll2000 said:

He's a character too.

 

16 minutes ago, dll2000 said:

Can he block the edge? 

 

16 minutes ago, dll2000 said:

Or play LT? 

Dude has like 13 personalities, I'm sure one can do each of those tasks. 

 

Honestly outside of hoping LAC is deciding to tank and Rivers is for sale I'm not sure what impact player can be had, even looking outside of LT and TE. I'd be calling for Trent Williams and would have Leno and a high pick available if he will sign an extension. 

[BACK2MACKSACK]

5 hours ago, topwop1 said:

That would be ideal but high value position players of his caliber and character aren't made available very often my friend.

Agreed with you on if their careers ended today for Mitch and Shaheen.. they'd be labeled busts.  And no question on Mahomes or Watson but I'm tired of thinking of what could have been.  It is what it is now...just have to hope Mitch can develop the way the organization intended him to.

I already think Shaheen is a bust similar to Kevin White.  It's so hard for him to stay healthy and when he is he hasn't shown or done much. Looking like a bad pick.

I may be in the minority but I think Floyd is a good football player.  He may not be a star I'm fine with the return we got from him.

Roquan's recent play hasn't been stellar but we've all seen glimpses of what he can do.  No question on the talent more so if he has the head for the game. 

When looking at draft picks in the first round I consider relative value at the draft position. I wouldn't consider Floyd a bust because at the end of the day he still is an effective starter for this team.

I believe for the first two rounds you always go for the best player available as opposed to drafting for need (unless drafting QB). Franchises need to build teams around cornerstone players and these players should be targeted in the first two rounds. If you bust on a position of need, it's not going to add value to a team but if you draft a game-changing player, regardless of position of need it makes a team immensely better. This can mask deficiencies that the team may have.  The mid to late rounds should be spent on positions of need.

Mitch for his draft position, he is a bust thus far. However, the QB position is a tough position to nail for this and many other teams historically. I still want to see what he can do for one more year and picking our next QB in '21.

We need some young talent across our offensive line. Maybe with one of our 2nd rd picks draft a OT that can start on the right side and groomed into LT over years. I want to see the other second round pick spent on a TE. Regardless of our QB future we really need a TE to move the chains on tough downs and distances. If we spent either of those picks on the BPA I wouldn't mind that either if the player was that good.