Raiders trade 2021 5th to Bills for WR Zay Jones

[big_palooka]

2 hours ago, bigbadbuff said:

Weird, John Brown seems to catch everything thrown his way and is having the best year of his career so far.

Well according to that stat, he's only dropped 1 of the 8 catchable balls thrown his way.

And Brown's been in the league since 2014 and had some time to develop. And always been a solid receiver. Don't get what he has to do with this argument.

[soflbillsfan]

21 hours ago, jrry32 said:

Dude, I think you need to check out their stat lines. Here are the per-16 game numbers for Woods, Goodwin, and Hogan:

Woods

Buffalo - 57 receptions, 688 yards, and 3 TDs

LA - 84 receptions, 1142 yards, and 5 TDs

Hogan

Buffalo (last 2 years) - 38 receptions, 438 yards, and 3 TDs

NE - 43 receptions, 660 yards, and 5 TDs

Goodwin

Buffalo (final year) - 31 receptions, 460 yards, and 3 TDs

SF - 45 receptions, 786 yards, and 4 TDs

As a pure receiver, he reminded me a bit of Robert Woods coming out. That's why I think he'd perform better with a precision passer in a WCO. We'll see if his hands come back around.

Again with Goodwin he missed 25 games there is a reason why they didnt pay him because he was dead his entire career, so stats mean jack with his situation. 9 starts his last year in buffalo compared to 16 in his first year with san fran so you can pick and choose stats but your not showing the entire picture for what it is. As I said Robert Woods was the only one that was worth keeping around and he wanted money they couldnt afford to pay him because the old GM put the bills in a cap situation they couldnt pay. 2016 he played 13 games and started 10, then you take 2018 stats not 2017 stats from Rams in which he started and played 16 games .  Cant manipulate your stats if you are trying to have a real discussion on this stuff. Not to mention having Watkins out for his last year forcing Woods to be the #1 and woods has yet to be a #1 Wr on the Rams which give relief off of him. More goes in to it then just comparing a couple of stats that are posted online.

As for Hogan he started 6 games for the bills in the 3 years he was in Buffalo. You act like the bills qb or coaching held him back but he couldnt get out on the field because he was being out performed by wr on the roster like Woods. He has the best qb in the league and still only managed 43 receptions. He isnt special in any way so dont act like he was held back by Buffalo.

Zay dropped the most balls in the league last year, then dropped this year, he gives up and doesnt fight for the ball. you cant even count on him catching the ball between the numbers at times. Zay couldnt beat out an ex cfl player and psquad in Duke Williams, and would have been moved weeks ago if 2017 UDFA Robert Foster wasnt injured. He definitely needs a change of scenery but at best he will be 3rd or 4th wr on an extremely weak wr corps in Oakland. Difference between Woods and Zay is Woods has the hands and contests for the ball, Zay has not done that. He had hands in college but his talent against him was nonexistent at ECU so facing top tier talent at the pro level has had him blocked mentally. He doesnt try to go up and get it just look at the Pats play where the Safety went up for the ball and he just sat there which was the final straw for the bills coaching staff. 

Edited October 9, 2019 by soflbillsfan

[ronjon1990]

21 minutes ago, soflbillsfan said:

He had hands in college but his talent against him was nonexistent at ECU

This is demonstrably false. 

ECU, in his time there, played pretty solid teams in Virginia Tech, NC, Tulane in 2013.

2014: South Carolina, VaTech, North Carolina, Cincinnati, UCF, Florida

2015: Florida, Navy, VaTech, BYU, Temple, USF, Cincinnati 

2016: NCST, South Carolina, VaTech, USF, Tulsa, Navy, Temple. 

Murderer's Row? Not exactly. But ECU played enough talented teams to make "non-existent" a falsehood based solely on conference name. ECU played as difficult a schedule those years as many P5 teams wound up ultimately playing.

The guy didn't pan out in Buffalo, and may not in Oakland. He wouldn't be the first player to flame out after a stellar college career. Plenty of guys showed about as well as he did against objectively better talent week in and week out and failed. Some played against worse, yet succeeded in the NFL. But to blanketly say ECU wasn't playing anyone of substance from 2013-2016 isn't true. 

 

[Kmart128]

7 hours ago, big_palooka said:

I read a stat in passing (PFF Maybe) that said he's been targeted 18 times this season with only 8 of those as catchable balls, in which he caught 7. 

He's not exactly played in a talented offense with good QB play to start his career. Easier to trash the WR than the highly drafted QB. 

The issue goes well beyond Josh Allen... It was an issue with Tyrod Taylor who was very accurate with the football and only through to guys wide open.  Zay still struggled catching the ball.

And John Brown and Cole Beasley seem to have no problem getting open and catching balls from Allen. Heck Duke Williams came in from practice squad to replace Zay caught all his targets this weekend and scored a TD. Duke in 1 game had done more for our offense than Zay has done all season.

[big_palooka]

49 minutes ago, marshawn lynch said:

The issue goes well beyond Josh Allen... It was an issue with Tyrod Taylor who was very accurate with the football and only through to guys wide open.  Zay still struggled catching the ball.

And John Brown and Cole Beasley seem to have no problem getting open and catching balls from Allen. Heck Duke Williams came in from practice squad to replace Zay caught all his targets this weekend and scored a TD. Duke in 1 game had done more for our offense than Zay has done all season.

Again... the stat I posted suggests he caught all but 1 catchable ball. According to that stat Allen/Barkley were off target on 10 attempts. So he's catch the balls that are catchable just like the other WRs, just not getting the same amount of targets it would appear.

[jrry32]

2 hours ago, soflbillsfan said:

Again with Goodwin he missed 25 games there is a reason why they didnt pay him because he was dead his entire career, so stats mean jack with his situation. 9 starts his last year in buffalo compared to 16 in his first year with san fran so you can pick and choose stats but your not showing the entire picture for what it is. As I said Robert Woods was the only one that was worth keeping around and he wanted money they couldnt afford to pay him because the old GM put the bills in a cap situation they couldnt pay. 2016 he played 13 games and started 10, then you take 2018 stats not 2017 stats from Rams in which he started and played 16 games .  Cant manipulate your stats if you are trying to have a real discussion on this stuff. Not to mention having Watkins out for his last year forcing Woods to be the #1 and woods has yet to be a #1 Wr on the Rams which give relief off of him. More goes in to it then just comparing a couple of stats that are posted online.

As for Hogan he started 6 games for the bills in the 3 years he was in Buffalo. You act like the bills qb or coaching held him back but he couldnt get out on the field because he was being out performed by wr on the roster like Woods. He has the best qb in the league and still only managed 43 receptions. He isnt special in any way so dont act like he was held back by Buffalo.

Zay dropped the most balls in the league last year, then dropped this year, he gives up and doesnt fight for the ball. you cant even count on him catching the ball between the numbers at times. Zay couldnt beat out an ex cfl player and psquad in Duke Williams, and would have been moved weeks ago if 2017 UDFA Robert Foster wasnt injured. He definitely needs a change of scenery but at best he will be 3rd or 4th wr on an extremely weak wr corps in Oakland. Difference between Woods and Zay is Woods has the hands and contests for the ball, Zay has not done that. He had hands in college but his talent against him was nonexistent at ECU so facing top tier talent at the pro level has had him blocked mentally. He doesnt try to go up and get it just look at the Pats play where the Safety went up for the ball and he just sat there which was the final straw for the bills coaching staff. 

I didn't manipulate any stats. In fact, I went out of my way to be fair to Buffalo by not taking seasons where Hogan and Goodwin barely played. I gave you the per-16 game numbers for their averages in each destination. It's quite clear that all three were far more productive outside of Buffalo. I don't care to hear excuses. 

[jrry32]

1 hour ago, ronjon1990 said:

This is demonstrably false. 

ECU, in his time there, played pretty solid teams in Virginia Tech, NC, Tulane in 2013.

2014: South Carolina, VaTech, North Carolina, Cincinnati, UCF, Florida

2015: Florida, Navy, VaTech, BYU, Temple, USF, Cincinnati 

2016: NCST, South Carolina, VaTech, USF, Tulsa, Navy, Temple. 

Murderer's Row? Not exactly. But ECU played enough talented teams to make "non-existent" a falsehood based solely on conference name. ECU played as difficult a schedule those years as many P5 teams wound up ultimately playing.

The guy didn't pan out in Buffalo, and may not in Oakland. He wouldn't be the first player to flame out after a stellar college career. Plenty of guys showed about as well as he did against objectively better talent week in and week out and failed. Some played against worse, yet succeeded in the NFL. But to blanketly say ECU wasn't playing anyone of substance from 2013-2016 isn't true. 

 

He was also a total monster at the Senior Bowl.

[RaidersAreOne]