Freddie ain’t Ready

[DawgX]

4 hours ago, Mind Character said:

I keep hearing some of the most insane true tortured Browns fan stuff that's just madness.

Stuff like," We need to return to the simpler times.. the good times when we had less talent.. so Baker and our OC can thrive once more not having to worry about so many mouths to feed and worry about having to get the ball so so many people's."

It's nuts. We're literally talking about getting the ball to 2 WRs and 2 RBs with one being a pass catcher; We're NOT talking about having 3 WRs; a TE; and RBs. People are acting like it's quantum physics.  Some teams have GASP! 3 WRs, a TE, and a RB and they were able to do all the advanced rocket science to figure out that they wouldn't be better by trading one of them.

Can you imagine other coaches or their fan bases saying of some of the more talented offenses in the game saying stuff, " I"m sorry... we're going to have to trade you .. I'm afraid we just have too many good players and it's too conffusing and hard to figure this out."

You know we've gone completely bat **** crazy when plans being put forth are, " Okay. I think I have it figured out how to thrive.. Let's start with trading Jarvis Landry and Odell Beckham.. after that things will start to click for our play-calling and QB."

Nuts I tell ya... Absolutely NUTS...

Yeah, the talk of trading OBJ and/or Jarvis is crazy. Baker has had a down year, so let's get rid of one or both of his only two good receivers... cause that'll help him somehow.

[LETSGOBROWNIES]

9 minutes ago, DawgX said:

Yeah, the talk of trading OBJ and/or Jarvis is crazy. Baker has had a down year, so let's get rid of one or both of his only two good receivers... cause that'll help him somehow.

My thing with moving OBJ is if Baker is too focused on keeping him happy and not just making reads and throws, he’s more of a detriment.  Or at least he’s seemed so this year.

The OBJ apologists are lying to themselves if they think he’s not at least a part of the issue. Is it the injury? Maybe. If so, acknowledge you’re not 100% and stop with theatrics when you’re not getting the ball.

Do I think he HAS to go?  No, not at all.  I do think he needs to commit himself to the team’s offseason program so he and Baker can get in a rhythm, have a bit more self awareness about his body language and such and, if the reports are true, stop flapping his gums with stuff like “come and get me”.

And if you’re trading OBJ, you’re getting assets in return which should help Baker, be it on the OL or a defense he can lean on a bit more. It’s not like anyone wants to give OBJ away.

[Mind Character]

3 hours ago, LETSGOBROWNIES said:

My thing with moving OBJ is if Baker is too focused on keeping him happy and not just making reads and throws, he’s more of a detriment.  Or at least he’s seemed so this year.

So, honest questions:

1.) Do you think Baker can handle the pressures or mental strain involved with playing alongside more than 1 talented and/or elite WR play-maker? 

2.) Assuming what you and many often say is true, is there a way to help Baker not "focus on keeping a play-maker happy and not just making reads and throws" besides just trading away that player? Or is trading away talent so Baker doesn't have to worry about him the option of choice for Baker and the team?

3.) So, we trade OBJ... leaving us with Jarvis Landry and no WR or TE play-maker. What level of play-making talent (how good is too good) is Baker capable of successfully working with where he can just go through his reads all comfortable like as you all suggest? 

4.) Will it always be too difficult for Freddie Kitchens or Baker Mayfield to handle incorporating 2 WRs, 1 RB, and 1 change of pace pass catching RB?

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Imagine Tony Dungy going to Peyton Manning and saying, " Good News...help is on the way Peyton, we're going to trade Marvin Harrison so you don't have to deal with the mental strain of making him happy. Now instead you can just focus on getting the ball to Reggie Wayne, Edgerrin James, Dallas Clark, and Brandon Stokley... and you know what actually that's too much strain too.. so to help you out we're going to trade one of them to."

To me, it's just maddening to hear that the way to help a QB is to trade a play-maker because the mental strain on the QB is too hardy hard.

If Baker can't handle playing with more than 1 play-maker, then he's not the right QB in the first place. Even if he does have those struggles, the solution is for the offensive group to come together with chemistry/understanding and for the play-caller to design the offense better NOT to just trade players away.

Baker played with CeeDee Lamb, Hollywood Brown, Mark Andrews, Rodney Anderson..Joe Mixon... he's played in multiple play-maker offenses. Lincoln Riley and great play-callers and QB offensive mastery help fix a lot.

3 hours ago, LETSGOBROWNIES said:

The OBJ apologists are lying to themselves if they think he’s not at least a part of the issue.

All things in life are multiply determined with some factors being more important in determining the outcome.

OBJ has been part of the issue, but he's not in the top 3 of main factors determining the offenses struggles.

I really don't know how one could watch this season and say to themselves that OBJ is the primary, secondary, or third reason for our offenses issues. Is he a part of it? Sure. It's a really odd focus to put things on Odell given how this year's played out. Battled injury to what will be 1100 yard down year.

I don't get it. But who gives a F*ck at this point.

Edited December 16, 2019 by Mind Character

[LETSGOBROWNIES]

@Mind Character at work, but I’ll get at this when I can.

[Mind Character]

8 minutes ago, LETSGOBROWNIES said:

@Mind Character at work, but I’ll get at this when I can.

No worries at all man. I totally understand

I had no expectation of a fast response. 

Whether it be days or whatever it's all good.

Enjoy the work grind as much as possible. I always take some vacation time the week before the holiday to get that extended time off. So, I'm just enjoying the nothingness of the late morning.

[Mega Ron]

Do you guys, and girls (je suis woke) type these rather long responses on a phone?

[LETSGOBROWNIES]

13 minutes ago, Mega Ron said:

Do you guys, and girls (je suis woke) type these rather long responses on a phone?

Ipad.

[LETSGOBROWNIES]

I can knock out short stuff at work, but longer responses after work or when I’m acting as the supervisor.

[Mega Ron]

6 minutes ago, LETSGOBROWNIES said:

I can knock out short stuff at work, but longer responses after work or when I’m acting as the supervisor.

I work from home, so that's never an issue for me 

[LETSGOBROWNIES]

3 minutes ago, Mega Ron said:

I work from home, so that's never an issue for me 

Me too

[LETSGOBROWNIES]

2 hours ago, Mind Character said:

So, honest questions:

1.) Do you think Baker can handle the pressures or mental strain involved with playing alongside more than 1 talented and/or elite WR play-maker? 

 

I think the issue isn’t “mental strain”, it’s keeping arguably the league’s biggest star happy.

Quote

 

2.) Assuming what you and many often say is true, is there a way to help Baker not "focus on keeping a play-maker happy and not just making reads and throws" besides just trading away that player? Or is trading away talent so Baker doesn't have to worry about him the option of choice for Baker and the team?

 

If they player is upset when they aren’t getting their number called enough, it removes some amount of choice as well.  If you want to keep them happy anyway.

Quote

 

3.) So, we trade OBJ... leaving us with Jarvis Landry and no WR or TE play-maker. What level of play-making talent (how good is too good) is Baker capable of successfully working with where he can just go through his reads all comfortable like as you all suggest?

I think Baker is capable of making mediocre WR’s look good when he’s not being pressure to fill a stat sheet.  We saw it last year anyway.

Quote

 

4.) Will it always be too difficult for Freddie Kitchens or Baker Mayfield to handle incorporating 2 WRs, 1 RB, and 1 change of pace pass catching RB?

 

It depends on the egos and demands of those players I guess.

Quote

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Imagine Tony Dungy going to Peyton Manning and saying, " Good News...help is on the way Peyton, we're going to trade Marvin Harrison so you don't have to deal with the mental strain of making him happy. Now instead you can just focus on getting the ball to Reggie Wayne, Edgerrin James, Dallas Clark, and Brandon Stokley... and you know what actually that's too much strain too.. so to help you out we're going to trade one of them to."

 

Peyton was establish and/or came up with those guys, not year two playing with a bonafide HOFer with all the twitter followers .

And Clark and Stokely were fine, but products of the system/Peyton.  Jarvis, OBJ and Hunt have all produced on an elite level elsewhere and want/expect those touches.  The colts players came up in that system.  The expectations were most likely much different.  

There was also a pecking order that developed over years there too.  I think all of these guys think they’re “the man”, and that just can’t be the case.

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To me, it's just maddening to hear that the way to help a QB is to trade a play-maker because the mental strain on the QB is too hardy hard.

If Baker can't handle playing with more than 1 play-maker, then he's not the right QB in the first place. Even if he does have those struggles, the solution is for the offensive group to come together with chemistry/understanding and for the play-caller to design the offense better NOT to just trade players away.

Baker played with CeeDee Lamb, Hollywood Brown, Mark Andrews, Rodney Anderson..Joe Mixon... he's played in multiple play-maker offenses. Lincoln Riley and great play-callers and QB offensive mastery help fix a lot.

 

Right, but Baker was king ding a ling and the top dog.  That’s not him right now it seems, it’s OBJ.

Quote

 

All things in life are multiply determined with some factors being more important in determining the outcome.

OBJ has been part of the issue, but he's not in the top 3 of main factors determining the offenses struggles.

 

Not him by himself, no, but what seems like an insistence on the part of Baker and/or Freddie to force feed him the ball and then him doing nothing noteworthy with the ball.

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I really don't know how one could watch this season and say to themselves that OBJ is the primary, secondary, or third reason for our offenses issues. Is he a part of it? Sure. It's a really odd focus to put things on Odell given how this year's played out. Battled injury to what will be 1100 yard down year.

 

1100 yards is a cherrypicked stat.  He’s got a lot of garbage yards (like yesterday for example) and has exactly two td’s and made minimal big plays.

is that because he’s hurt? Probably. But in that case you can’t both say “I can’t hit my high gear” and “get me the damned ball”. If you’re not your usual self, you’re not gonna see your usual targets.

Quote

 

I don't get it. But who gives a F*ck at this point.

Agreed.

[DawgX]

10 hours ago, LETSGOBROWNIES said:

My thing with moving OBJ is if Baker is too focused on keeping him happy and not just making reads and throws, he’s more of a detriment.  Or at least he’s seemed so this year.

The OBJ apologists are lying to themselves if they think he’s not at least a part of the issue. Is it the injury? Maybe. If so, acknowledge you’re not 100% and stop with theatrics when you’re not getting the ball.

Do I think he HAS to go?  No, not at all.  I do think he needs to commit himself to the team’s offseason program so he and Baker can get in a rhythm, have a bit more self awareness about his body language and such and, if the reports are true, stop flapping his gums with stuff like “come and get me”.

And if you’re trading OBJ, you’re getting assets in return which should help Baker, be it on the OL or a defense he can lean on a bit more. It’s not like anyone wants to give OBJ away.

Trust me, I don't think OBJ is blameless and I've been critical of his play. Hopefully it's just his injury and lack of chemistry with Baker and that those things can be fixed, but he's absolutely been a disappointment and we've seen too many plays this year where he dropped very catchable passes. I just don't think trading him is the answer. For one, we'd be lucky to get anywhere close what we gave up for him, and it'll probably also rub Landry the wrong way (which was one of the potential downfalls of trading for OBJ if he ended up not being happy here and we parted ways with him - it could cause us to have another disgruntled player in Jarvis).

I still think OBJ can help make our offense be truly lethal though. Even though he's had a down season, there's no doubt in my mind that he's helped guys like Landry and Chubb have great seasons as he demands attention from opposing defenses. Landry and Chubb likely still have really good to great seasons even without OBJ, but I don't think they'd be as good as they've been this year without OBJ's presence.

We just need OBJ to get healthy, spend a lot of time with Baker in the offseason developing chemistry, and for our offense to do a better job of utilizing him.

[LETSGOBROWNIES]

6 minutes ago, DawgX said:

Trust me, I don't think OBJ is blameless and I've been critical of his play. Hopefully it's just his injury and lack of chemistry with Baker and that those things can be fixed, but he's absolutely been a disappointment and we've seen too many plays this year where he dropped very catchable passes. I just don't think trading him is the answer. For one, we'd be lucky to get anywhere close what we gave up for him, and it'll probably also rub Landry the wrong way (which was one of the potential downfalls of trading for OBJ if he ended up not being happy here and we parted ways with him - it could cause us to have another disgruntled player in Jarvis).

I still think OBJ can help make our offense be truly lethal though. Even though he's had a down season, there's no doubt in my mind that he's helped guys like Landry and Chubb have great seasons as he demands attention from opposing defenses. Landry and Chubb likely still have really good to great seasons even without OBJ, but I don't think they'd be as good as they've been this year without OBJ's presence.

We just need OBJ to get healthy, spend a lot of time with Baker in the offseason developing chemistry, and for our offense to do a better job of utilizing him.

I don’t disagree necessarily.

If I’m Dorsey I need to have an honest convo with OBJ.  Do you want to be here? Are you willing to commit to OUR offseason schedule re: camps, TC, etc? Are you willing to be a secondary or tertiary option if other guys are grinding?

If so, yeah, bring his studly arse back.

If not, look for a good deal and move on imo.

[brownie man]

AZ is getting praised for trading Rosen to draft Murray

what if they would’ve kept Rosen another year They’d be in a much worse position 

sometimes you’ve got accept you were wrong or that you can do better, cut your losses, and move on

 

[NateDawg]

9 minutes ago, brownie man said:

AZ is getting praised for trading Rosen to draft Murray

what if they would’ve kept Rosen another year They’d be in a much worse position 

sometimes you’ve got accept you were wrong or that you can do better, cut your losses, and move on

 

Are we talking about our head coach or our quarterback here?