Freddie ain’t Ready

[DaWg_LB.]

And maybe its just me......but it seems as if person dosent come into this job and go 11-5 or better in their FIRST year as a HC, then there is a large sentiment in here to fire the guy and get another guy. Records of 8-6, 6-10, 5-11, 3-12 or 0-11-1 would have a large part of this room calling for heads and replacement. Which is interesting because we would have just fired.

1. Don Shula

2. Bill Bellickeck

3. Andy Reid

4. Bill Parcells

and 5. Tom Landry

No Lets NOT wait for a 2nd year...lets go get a better guy NOW.

[Mega Ron]

I don't know the answer to this, so it's an honest question. Did their teams look as poorly managed as this one?

[big poppa pump]

7 minutes ago, DaWg_LB. said:

And maybe its just me......but it seems as if person dosent come into this job and go 11-5 or better in their FIRST year as a HC, then there is a large sentiment in here to fire the guy and get another guy. Records of 8-6, 6-10, 5-11, 3-12 or 0-11-1 would have a large part of this room calling for heads and replacement. Which is interesting because we would have just fired.

1. Don Shula

2. Bill Bellickeck

3. Andy Reid

4. Bill Parcells

and 5. Tom Landry

No Lets NOT wait for a 2nd year...lets go get a better guy NOW.

I'm fairly certain I saw that you said you are a "bottom line" person, in which case, pretty much the record is what matters.  And ultimately that is what we are looking for: wins v losses.

 

But I also think in most cases, context does matter.

How are you losing?

Why are you losing?

Is your team underachieving?

Has there been growth?

Is there something to build on?

Do you still have the respect of your players?

 

All of these need to be considered, and if there isn't a remedy, then it is best to find a way to fix this externally.  

[DaWg_LB.]

49 minutes ago, big poppa pump said:

I'm fairly certain I saw that you said you are a "bottom line" person, in which case, pretty much the record is what matters.  And ultimately that is what we are looking for: wins v losses.

 

But I also think in most cases, context does matter.

How are you losing?

Why are you losing?

Is your team underachieving?

Has there been growth?

Is there something to build on?

Do you still have the respect of your players?

 

All of these need to be considered, and if there isn't a remedy, then it is best to find a way to fix this externally.  

I am a Bottom line person in wins and losses in the Context of how good a team is based on a single snapshot year. Yes that is the case.

I do not look a 1rst time HC's Rookie seasons W/L record to determine if that coach will be successful or not.

I agree that context is needed with numbers, because numbers never lie....but numbers don't always tell the whole story. And I would suppose that if you asked 10 different Brothers in here you would get 60 different answer combinations to those 6 questions. And guess in there lies the rub. Some of the Brothers in here, I feel they have negative outlooks on those questions and so they feel we should move on. I also feel several Brothers in here dont see us at 12-4 winning the division and walking into a 1rst round bye in the playoffs and just think Kitchens Sucks and needs to be replaced based off the record and to an extent the "Mob" mentality. 

I am not accusing you or anybody else directly of these actions, this is not an attempt to call anybody out.

Just stating the feeling I'm getting from my point of view.

[big poppa pump]

2 minutes ago, DaWg_LB. said:

I am a Bottom line person in wins and losses in the Context of how good a team is based on a single snapshot year. Yes that is the case.

I do not look a 1rst time HC's Rookie seasons W/L record to determine if that coach will be successful or not.

I agree that context is needed with numbers, because numbers never lie....but numbers don't always tell the whole story. And I would suppose that if you asked 10 different Brothers in here you would get 60 different answer combinations to those 6 questions. And guess in there lies the rub. Some of the Brothers in here, I feel they have negative outlooks on those questions and so they feel we should move on. I also feel several Brothers in here dont see us at 12-4 winning the division and walking into a 1rst round bye in the playoffs and just think Kitchens Sucks and needs to be replaced based off the record and to an extent the "Mob" mentality. 

I am not accusing you or anybody else directly of these actions, this is not an attempt to call anybody out.

Just stating the feeling I'm getting from my point of view.

No, I totally get the perspective you are coming from.  I wish I saw something this year that would say.....ahhh....we can build on this.  Freddie looked very good as a playcaller last year, and ultimately that, coupled with a good relationship with Baker gave me high hopes.  He looks overwhelmed, and I don't think that is not fixable, but I don't believe that is a tweak here and there.  He would have to make some changes within himself, and his thought process to have some progression.  He appears to be too stubborn imo to take these steps.  I am specifically referring to refusing to give up play-calling, and yes, I know I said that was his strength last year, but it appears to be too much to handle.  He also did not build upon the strengths of this team. (running the football)  I see this more of, let's move on now, and not prolong this process like we did with Hue.

[DaWg_LB.]

10 minutes ago, big poppa pump said:

No, I totally get the perspective you are coming from.  I wish I saw something this year that would say.....ahhh....we can build on this.  Freddie looked very good as a playcaller last year, and ultimately that, coupled with a good relationship with Baker gave me high hopes.  He looks overwhelmed, and I don't think that is not fixable, but I don't believe that is a tweak here and there.  He would have to make some changes within himself, and his thought process to have some progression.  He appears to be too stubborn imo to take these steps.  I am specifically referring to refusing to give up play-calling, and yes, I know I said that was his strength last year, but it appears to be too much to handle.  He also did not build upon the strengths of this team. (running the football)  I see this more of, let's move on now, and not prolong this process like we did with Hue.

And I can dig where your coming from....and from my perspective, I see something different. I see a young coach, who came up the right way, biting off more than he could chew in his first year, suffering HUGE injuries, and making improvement as the year went on. He did look overwhelemed in week 1. especially with Penalties, not getting the play call in time, Undisciplined players. Unless someone just dosent like Freddie they cannot factually say that we have not improved here over the year. I saw new wrinkles in the offense, I've seen him deal with attempting to put together a 2ndary, Dline and WR corps all year, as we have had HUGE injuries and not a lot of depth, I saw him incorporate Hunt effectively. 

Some folks say his offense sucks now......I say we are dealing with a QB who is going through a Soph slump and a bunch of new players having to be melded together, and  yet and still is on pace to have 2 1000 yard WR's AND the NFL's rushing champion.

We have been blown out only 2 times this year, and we have blown 2 teams out this year....Including probably #1 AFC seated playoff team (Ravens, IN Baltimore) and I have seen him play Seattle to a stand still, and coach us to a 14 point loss in NE on the road, where Chubb Fumbles on what should have been a 65 yard+ TD run, then fumble on the next play, which leads to a NE FG, and then on the following play, the RG misses a block that costs us a pick 6 (that's 17 points) that's all on new players to the team, or on a player who did not have 16 NFL starts at the time (technically still a rookie).

Some folks say he did not build on the running game, and I can agree with that to an extent, but if my GM, who I'm supposed to be in lock step with, trades my RG, then trades for 2 (not just OBJ, check our transaction log) Wr's and we have a rookie QB coming off an NFL RECORD BREAKING year.....I would think I could have a balanced offense also, but not when things happen in like what happened in the Patriots game...or Antonio Callaway decides to turn TD catches in Pick 6's (SF game).....that's not bad play calls, that's on players not doing their jobs.

Some say he's lost the Locker room,....by not talking and addressing the rumors, I guess folks start to think they are true, because of click bait. Yet and still the two players that all this "Noise" is centered around, BOTH come out this week and let it be known that they both want to be here, and not going anywhere. This place is special and they want to figure it out here.

I guess I just see things different, and maybe that's me with Orange Colored glasses on.

[brownie man]

2 hours ago, DaWg_LB. said:

I am a Bottom line person in wins and losses in the Context of how good a team is based on a single snapshot year. Yes that is the case.

 

 

Yeah you can’t just look at the record. That’s unreasonable

you’ve got to look at the actual season and the job he’s actually doing. 
 

let’s say Jets Aren’t on their 3rd string QB and have Darnold we definitely could’ve lost to them 

let’s say Steelers have Big Ben great chance we lose to them as well

thats two wins right there against backup QBs
 

let’s say we don’t get that false start against buffalo and we don’t get the touchdown when Freddie wanted to go for it and we lose that game  

And let’s say that isn’t Kareems first week back and the Bills possibly have some tape on how he’d fit in the offense  and defend us differently 

let’s say the Bengals and Dolphins aren’t absolute trash 

there’s a lot of context man he’s beat some terrible teams and had luck with backup QBs 

there is Nothing  about What he’s done this year to display any confidence he’s actually fit for the job. 

[matt27j]

I went back and watched the games from last year. Unsurprisingly, Chubb was the catalyst. He's good out of any formation.

Big difference in the distribution of the ball. Higgins, Njoku, and later in the year Callaway. OBJ replaces Callaway's role this year, and the TE's did a good job of replacing Njoku for the most part. However, Njoku could go up and get the ball and had Baker's confidence. 

That leave's Higgins. No one took on his role this year. Knows how to find the soft spots, reliable, and can make tough catches on occasion. 

Beyond that, in terms of play calling or Baker's decisions, there was wheel routes, screens towards the sidelines, quick hooks towards the sidelines, a variety of deeper sideline throws and Baker actually checked down. Not a lot of blitzes so Baker was better at escaping and scrambled more. 

Not many of these trees  where everything is vertical and towards the middle field without any check downs. 

Fast forward to 2019 and we don't have Njoku to capitalize in the red zone, don't have Higgins to run all the hooks, sideline routes, and easy screens. On top of that the league has gotten a good sample size of the Kitchen's offense and we have faced better defenses. Kitchens and Baker have definitely had their blunders though.

Going forward we've got to find a way to beat the better defenses. It's going to take more variety. A wider route tree should help the blocking as well. But to do that we are going to need either that 3rd wr or reliable TE play. 

It's hard to really judge the games Myles has missed. He usually creates a turnover per game plus stopping a few drives. Easily could win vs PIT or ARI. 

Should've won against SEA if not for bad TO's and against DEN if Kitch just kicks FG's. 

We'd still be complaining, but Browns fans would be overjoyed to be 9-5 or 8-6 right now. 

To think someone else would've or will do any better is conjecture. Teams could've easily stacked the box, blitz, double OBJ and if Landry gets a bunch of catches so be it. Just don't give up td's. That's pretty much how the year has gone anyhow. 

 

 

[DaWg_LB.]

20 minutes ago, brownie man said:

 

Yeah you can’t just look at the record. That’s unreasonable

you’ve got to look at the actual season and the job he’s actually doing. 
 

let’s say Jets Aren’t on their 3rd string QB and have Darnold we definitely could’ve lost to them 

let’s say Steelers have Big Ben great chance we lose to them as well

thats two wins right there against backup QBs
 

let’s say we don’t get that false start against buffalo and we don’t get the touchdown when Freddie wanted to go for it and we lose that game  

And let’s say that isn’t Kareems first week back and the Bills possibly have some tape on how he’d fit in the offense  and defend us differently 

let’s say the Bengals and Dolphins aren’t absolute trash 

there’s a lot of context man he’s beat some terrible teams and had luck with backup QBs 

there is Nothing  about What he’s done this year to display any confidence he’s actually fit for the job. 

I understand and respect what you are saying....and I'm on the way to the Company happy hour, so please excuse the brevity of this response. I have a different perspective on some of what you are saying. 

The what if you game you played here, could easily go the other way.....lets say What if Chubb dosent fumble twice on back to back plays, and the RG picks up his block and we dont get a pick 6....thats 17 points right there....we beat New England at home in that case.

(I have 4 more I wanted to post, but my boy is saying "MAN LET's GO DRINK ON the company"

So I see things that are positive. and I dont think that anyone can be judged on the first year of the job....IF they have never done it before.

[bruceb]

10 hours ago, MistaBohmbastic said:

Remember how awful it was with Amos freaking Jones?

fify

[bruceb]

6 hours ago, DaWg_LB. said:

I say we are dealing with a QB who is going through a Soph slump

I do not believe in sophomore slumps.

More sophomore slacking in this case.

[mrpazzo]

In Drew Brees' 2nd year, (his first year starting since he only started 1 game in his rookie year.) He  started 16 games and threw for 3,284 yards, completed 60.8%, 17 tds and 16 int.  In year 3, his sophomore year, he only started 11 games, threw for 2,108 yards, completed 57.6%, 11 tds and 15 ints.    Good to see that a slacker managed to turn it around.  

I don't know if Baker is/was a slacker, you may be right bruceb.  He may turn it around, he may wind up a great disappointment.  We all may think we know, but we don't know, not even Baker. Que Sera Sera.

 

[Kiwibrown]

17 minutes ago, mrpazzo said:

In Drew Brees' 2nd year, (his first year starting since he only started 1 game in his rookie year.) He  started 16 games and threw for 3,284 yards, completed 60.8%, 17 tds and 16 int.  In year 3, his sophomore year, he only started 11 games, threw for 2,108 yards, completed 57.6%, 11 tds and 15 ints.    Good to see that a slacker managed to turn it around.  

I don't know if Baker is/was a slacker, you may be right bruceb.  He may turn it around, he may wind up a great disappointment.  We all may think we know, but we don't know, not even Baker. Que Sera Sera.

 

Baker might be better or worse next year, we dont know. That is what drew brees showes us.

[buno67]

8 hours ago, DaWg_LB. said:

And maybe its just me......but it seems as if person dosent come into this job and go 11-5 or better in their FIRST year as a HC, then there is a large sentiment in here to fire the guy and get another guy. Records of 8-6, 6-10, 5-11, 3-12 or 0-11-1 would have a large part of this room calling for heads and replacement. Which is interesting because we would have just fired.

1. Don Shula

2. Bill Bellickeck

3. Andy Reid

4. Bill Parcells

and 5. Tom Landry

No Lets NOT wait for a 2nd year...lets go get a better guy NOW.

Can you name one thing they Freddie does well as a HC or playcaller? Does he do anything that makes you want to see a 2nd year? He literally Does nothing well and doesn’t show any potential really. 

[DaWg_LB.]

1 hour ago, bruceb said:

I do not believe in sophomore slumps.

More sophomore slacking in this case.

I can agree with what your saying.

I have an alternate potential concept.....a Sophomore being a little focused on other things (he ran camps, made a ton of commercials/appearances/etc, and got married) That dose'nt sound like a slacking...it sounds like misplaced focus.