sdrawkcab321 Posted December 22, 2019 Share Posted December 22, 2019 26 minutes ago, candyman93 said: I mean.... It’s a big reason why our 3-4 defense sucked *** for a decade. Our 3-4 sucked because our players sucked. You have to actually have good players to run a defense. No matter what scheme. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mind Character Posted December 22, 2019 Share Posted December 22, 2019 6 hours ago, candyman93 said: Also, if we win out, keep Freddie. So, whether or not we should keep Freddie comes down to beating a contending team and a trash team in consecutively? The latter game is irrelevant as a win tells me nothing. Another Ravens win would mean something. This game is the coaching staff's Super Bowl and the most important one in their coaching careers. A win may just tell us that survival kicked in and they came up with winning solutions at the same time our players like Baker, OBJ, Jarvis, etc have their back against the wall. I don't know if a win against the Ravens really tells us anything about the quality of Freddie's program and/or the quality of his program going forward. I think we have enough data. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
candyman93 Posted December 22, 2019 Share Posted December 22, 2019 3 hours ago, Mind Character said: So, whether or not we should keep Freddie comes down to beating a contending team and a trash team in consecutively? The latter game is irrelevant as a win tells me nothing. Another Ravens win would mean something. This game is the coaching staff's Super Bowl and the most important one in their coaching careers. A win may just tell us that survival kicked in and they came up with winning solutions at the same time our players like Baker, OBJ, Jarvis, etc have their back against the wall. I don't know if a win against the Ravens really tells us anything about the quality of Freddie's program and/or the quality of his program going forward. I think we have enough data. .... Do you have that bad of an attention span? Quote If we split, it will depend how we look. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bungleodeon Posted December 22, 2019 Share Posted December 22, 2019 honestly, i think Kitchens deserves a chance to improve. he isn't great right now, but it's not like he's an experienced head coach. he can certainly improve as a coach and i hate watching the browns constantly change coaches. i would be good with him losing play calling responsibilities. we have an offensive coordinator with experience. hopefully Kitchens learns from his mistakes and does a better job moving forward. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LETSGOBROWNIES Posted December 22, 2019 Share Posted December 22, 2019 45 minutes ago, bungleodeon said: honestly, i think Kitchens deserves a chance to improve. he isn't great right now, but it's not like he's an experienced head coach. he can certainly improve as a coach and i hate watching the browns constantly change coaches. i would be good with him losing play calling responsibilities. we have an offensive coordinator with experience. hopefully Kitchens learns from his mistakes and does a better job moving forward. This is about where I’m at. At some point there has to be consistency. People point to giving Hue 2.5 years during a tank as evidence we can actually be patient 😂 Hiring and firing coaches every year or two isn’t how good teams work. Even in done years they retool and regroup, not to nuclear. 6-8 wins is disappointing as hell, but let’s keep building on what we have as opposed to starting from scratch. Again. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mind Character Posted December 22, 2019 Share Posted December 22, 2019 3 hours ago, candyman93 said: .... Do you have that bad of an attention span? Lol, though your partly right, no I originally read that second part of your comment where you said "if we split it will depend on how we look," but I'm curious as to why a person (you and many others) feel as though 2 more games of data are make or break for Freddie as opposed to already having the diagnostic data through 14 games to decide about him and/or his program. It just seems to me at least that given the high probability of winning against a bad Bengals team, putting the entirety of the hire/fire decision on 1 extra game of data against the Ravens may ignore the tried and true lessons/data presented by Freddie for 14 games. We've seen coaches win games at the end of the season with their a** on the line before in this league, but I'm not sure even given the quality of the Ravens team that a win against them should change one's perspective on whether Freddie should be hired or fired or on whether or not Freddie will or won't lead a winning program for the Browns in the future. I think we've seen enough to this point to decide whether or not we should keep Freddie or not, but that's just my opinion. I do however think that if the people that waiting on the last 2 game results to decide likely are reluctant to fire Freddie in the first place and are ultimately searching for something to legitimize he belief that he should not be fired. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mind Character Posted December 22, 2019 Share Posted December 22, 2019 1 hour ago, bungleodeon said: honestly, i think Kitchens deserves a chance to improve. he isn't great right now, but it's not like he's an experienced head coach. he can certainly improve as a coach and i hate watching the browns constantly change coaches. i would be good with him losing play calling responsibilities. we have an offensive coordinator with experience. hopefully Kitchens learns from his mistakes and does a better job moving forward. 45 minutes ago, LETSGOBROWNIES said: This is about where I’m at. At some point there has to be consistency. People point to giving Hue 2.5 years during a tank as evidence we can actually be patient 😂 Hiring and firing coaches every year or two isn’t how good teams work. Even in done years they retool and regroup, not to nuclear. 6-8 wins is disappointing as hell, but let’s keep building on what we have as opposed to starting from scratch. Again. Would we have been willing to give Hue 2.5 years with this talent though? I say absolutely not. Building a house on a cracked and faulty foundation for the sake of not restarting the build isn't a good justification as plowing ahead in a build is going to lead to issues down the line anyway. I think there's nothing wrong at all with both of you hoping that Freddie will be better in the future, and I certainly think that have learned a lot of lessons in their 1st years to help them improve in their 2nd year. BUT I when a team has talent you can't afford to wait and see especially if that talent doesn't buy in to that coach and consistently performs as poorly as we do. I think things would be completely different if we saw more ups than downs in games or if even we had the same record but we looked better. This season has seen this team looked unprepared from the beginning to the latter parts of the season. Ultimately, to me that may be a sign of a fatal flaw and one that can't be grown from in year 2 as it would speak to a fatal issue or inability involved with Freddie's program. It doesn't really matter what any of us think because he's guaranteed to be coming back at this point. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dawgdish Posted December 22, 2019 Share Posted December 22, 2019 1 hour ago, LETSGOBROWNIES said: This is about where I’m at. At some point there has to be consistency. People point to giving Hue 2.5 years during a tank as evidence we can actually be patient 😂 Hiring and firing coaches every year or two isn’t how good teams work. Even in done years they retool and regroup, not to nuclear. 6-8 wins is disappointing as hell, but let’s keep building on what we have as opposed to starting from scratch. Again. Ugh. The logical side of me agrees with this so much. But the side of me that has been subject to this season of bumbling and underachieving wants to bludgeon Kitchens over the head with a helmet and boot him out the door. I'm in full on apathy mode at this point - whatever happens happens. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LETSGOBROWNIES Posted December 22, 2019 Share Posted December 22, 2019 1 hour ago, Mind Character said: Would we have been willing to give Hue 2.5 years with this talent though? ..... .... I would hope so. A “better get it tight immediately or you’re out the door” philosophy is tough. It’s even tougher to sell to potential hires. I think any potential hire who sees his predecessor get canned after 16 games is gonna be skeptical about taking the job. That’s more or less how we ended up with Pettine. 13 minutes ago, dawgdish said: Ugh. The logical side of me agrees with this so much. But the side of me that has been subject to this season of bumbling and underachieving wants to bludgeon Kitchens over the head with a helmet and boot him out the door. I'm in full on apathy mode at this point - whatever happens happens. Yeah this is how I feel now. Give me 5 hours, a probably throttling by the Ravens and another week of underachieving offense and I’ll be back to “can that fat hillbilly yesterday”. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mind Character Posted December 22, 2019 Share Posted December 22, 2019 8 minutes ago, LETSGOBROWNIES said: I think any potential hire who sees his predecessor get canned after 16 games is gonna be skeptical about taking the job. That’s more or less how we ended up with Pettine. I think we'd all agree that if we'd struggled consistently all year and won 3 games total it would be okay to fire Freddie after 1 year. Ultimately, I guess the question becomes where/what is threshold for it being okay to fire a coach after 1 year given this roster? 5 games with consistent not showing up and consistent struggles? 6? I think we're in that gray area for a lot of people where 7 wins while looking like we have justifies keeping him another year while 6 games means he's gone. I think a lot of coaches and execs had a hard time understanding why Chudzinski-types got the boot after 1 year, but that sentiment is not the case now as the league seems to get why Freddie needs to be fired as many view it (right or wrong) as brought on by his own incompetence. Back when we hired Pettine. This job was not attractive because of the owners and the talent. I think we are beyond that now after the league witnessed us stay with Hue and now we have the talent to lure people, but I do think it's a legit worry that we can't get back into a cycle that makes coaches want to stay away from us. There are coaches chomping at the bit to coach the likes of Myles, Chubb, Hunt, Jarvis, Baker, OBJ, Bitonio, Tretter, Ward, Greedy, Richardson, Vernon, etc. We can't lose sight at the fact that this is a desirable roster to work with because coaches have egos and believe that they can maximize talent. It would however mean that whoever the next coach is... we'd have to ride with them for a while. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LETSGOBROWNIES Posted December 22, 2019 Share Posted December 22, 2019 11 minutes ago, Mind Character said: I think we'd all agree that if we'd struggled consistently all year and won 3 games total it would be okay to fire Freddie after 1 year. Ultimately, I guess the question becomes where/what is threshold for it being okay to fire a coach after 1 year given this roster? 5 games with consistent not showing up and consistent struggles? 6? I think we're in that gray area for a lot of people where 7 wins while looking like we have justifies keeping him another year while 6 games means he's gone. I think a lot of coaches and execs had a hard time understanding why Chudzinski-types got the boot after 1 year, but that sentiment is not the case now as the league seems to get why Freddie needs to be fired as many view it (right or wrong) as brought on by his own incompetence. Back when we hired Pettine. This job was not attractive because of the owners and the talent. I think we are beyond that now after the league witnessed us stay with Hue and now we have the talent to lure people, but I do think it's a legit worry that we can't get back into a cycle that makes coaches want to stay away from us. There are coaches chomping at the bit to coach the likes of Myles, Chubb, Hunt, Jarvis, Baker, OBJ, Bitonio, Tretter, Ward, Greedy, Richardson, Vernon, etc. We can't lose sight at the fact that this is a desirable roster to work with because coaches have egos and believe that they can maximize talent. It would however mean that whoever the next coach is... we'd have to ride with them for a while. I’m a big believer in at least knowing what your options are before making a move. I think had they done some work and realized nobody wanted the job when they fired a Chud, maybe they hang on to him. As far as this year, if they have a target that they really like and want and who wants to be here, do your thing and fire Freddie. If not, I’m not sure you just can him and start over without tweaking some things like a new OC, some OL talent etc first. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matt27j Posted December 22, 2019 Share Posted December 22, 2019 It's trickier than is thought. A big part of Freddie and gwill was that they got these guys to play with passion in part because they let them off the leash and are players coaches. Under Hue the team was lifeless. Mccarthy? Coughlin? Rivera? None of those guys really evoke passion. Id be afraid of going down the same Hue path. The team may clean up some mistakes, but may not play with as much fire. We saw that against zona. I do think Kitchens maybe gets too much blame when the players need to hold themselves and each other accountable. Kudos to him and the higher ups to just try and let the players work this out instead of blaming the coach. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brownie man Posted December 22, 2019 Author Share Posted December 22, 2019 On 10/13/2019 at 1:35 PM, DawgX said: Don't you love all the hot takes? Hot take 😂 still gets me man Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mind Character Posted December 22, 2019 Share Posted December 22, 2019 That Kareem Hunt Half-Back Pass was a real gem of a call... Taking the ball instead of deferring to get an extra possession against the Ravens offense was a beauty... Throwing 3 straight times when they had no timeouts before half was a gift... 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DawgX Posted December 22, 2019 Share Posted December 22, 2019 4 minutes ago, Mind Character said: That Kareem Hunt Half-Back Pass was a real gem of a call... Taking the ball instead of deferring to get an extra possession against the Ravens offense was a beauty... Throwing 3 straight times when they had no timeouts before half was a gift... Yup. Some atrocious coaching from Freddie today. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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