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Would you rather have an elite QB or an elite HC?


Bolts223

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1 hour ago, Duluther said:

Elite HC.  No question.

agree. The HC might have to have total control of the team, clean out the locker room and make sure the team is ready to buy into his plan. Todays players want to run the team and behave the way they want etc, a stern HC will fix this at the start then move forward.  Ego's and an enabling HC won't work no matter how much talent there is on the team.

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43 minutes ago, Bolts223 said:

- Problem with saying Manning with the Colts is it's not like Manning even played well in that postseason. It was Dungy's defense that won a low scoring 15-6 game against the Ravens.

Problem is that the only head coach of the last 20 years that I truly consider elite is Bill Belichick. The other top coaches of that time period like Cowher, both Harbaughs, Pete Carroll, Reid, etc I all consider to be very good head coaches but not "elite."

What I will say about Belichick is that I don't really consider 2001 Brady an elite QB yet. He was absolutely clutch, but he's a million times better now than he was then. I would argue the 2001 Patriots are a team that won with elite coaching but not elite QB play.

I think that last point is a good one. And yeah, Brady wasn't elite in 2001. No doubt about that. And yeah, I see your point about Belichick too, although I might call him "super elite." It's hard to make an argument for any other coach in the last 20 years being even close to him.

To your first point, I do see it, but you can flip that the other way as well. The Patriots gave up 20+ppg in their 2014, 2016 and 2018 SB runs while scoring 36, 35 and 30. It was kind of a flip from their 2001 run. I still think the rules emphasis in favor of passing have tipped the scales toward QBs, even if they've tipped them so that they are more even rather than leaning more toward coaches, if that makes sense.

I think we can agree that if you want truly prolonged success, like multiple SB appearances and multiple SB wins over the course of a decade, you need both. I see that potentially shaping up in KC right now.

 

Edited by childofpudding
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1 hour ago, Fresh Prince said:

How about an Elite GM?

I think this trumps all - an elite GM can find an very good HC and QB (along with great at every other position) all while managing the cap and keeping the core group of players evolving and growing. Players leave, coaches leave, elite QB retire, elite HCs retire... an elite GM replaces all of them with little disruption.

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12 minutes ago, ET80 said:

I think this trumps all - an elite GM can find an very good HC and QB (along with great at every other position) all while managing the cap and keeping the core group of players evolving and growing. Players leave, coaches leave, elite QB retire, elite HCs retire... an elite GM replaces all of them with little disruption.

Depends on your team structure too I think. For example the Saints Loomis isn’t really a football guy. He’s a great cap guy, but he’s not an elite GM in my eyes. I’ve never heard about him being talked about in that light. He just works the numbers.

If you have a guy like that paired up with an elite HC, you’ll do just fine.

Whichever you find first, elite HC or elite GM, take it. If they’re truly elite it doesn’t matter what their official title is, they’ll have a similar impact on the team. 

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Just now, MKnight82 said:

Not Mike McCarthy.

He had his moments early on in his career, but then the league caught up and passed him by
He's not in the elite category, that's rare air. But he was a good NFL HC and won a lot of games.

You can sort this one by wins, winning %  Titles or whatever you like to get a view of the NFL HC landscape

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/coaches/

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2 minutes ago, Shanedorf said:

He had his moments early on in his career, but then the league caught up and passed him by
He's not in the elite category, that's rare air. But he was a good NFL HC and won a lot of games.

You can sort this one by wins, winning %  Titles or whatever you like to get a view of the NFL HC landscape

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/coaches/

Exactly. Look at HC lists from 2007 - 2012. McCarthy is Top 5 in just about all of them. Since his system became dated and play calling repetitive. The Packers kept him like four years too long because of past accomplishments. 

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14 minutes ago, BayRaider said:

Exactly. Look at HC lists from 2007 - 2012. McCarthy is Top 5 in just about all of them. Since his system became dated and play calling repetitive. The Packers kept him like four years too long because of past accomplishments. 

Maybe.

MM's offenses ranked: 1, 11, 4, 15 and 7 his last 5 years. And that was with Rodgers missing 9 games in the worst season.

He was/is still a great HC, he just needed a change of scenery and had a broken relationship with Rodgers for some reason.

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1 hour ago, childofpudding said:

I think we can agree that if you want truly prolonged success, like multiple SB appearances and multiple SB wins over the course of a decade, you need both. I see that potentially shaping up in KC right now.

 

This.  You absolutely need both.  Preferably a defensive mind like Belichick paired with an elite QB IMO.  That's the thing with Reid and Mahomes, they may always dominate offensively, but they are gonna have plenty of garbage defenses to go along with it.  Maybe they can sneak in a few good defenses every now and then and win a superbowl.  

 

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