Trade Deadline Discussion

[soulman]

11 hours ago, beardown3231 said:

 

Cam Newton faggedaboudit but Foles is one of the few we might bring in as that vet competition for 2020.

It's time to look at our options.

[Sugashane]

5 hours ago, soulman said:

Cam Newton faggedaboudit but Foles is one of the few we might bring in as that vet competition for 2020.

It's time to look at our options.

You have to start Foles if you bring him in.  You can't let your back up make $22 mil.  Then $12 mil dead cap just to cut him in 2021.

 

I'd rather roll with a rookie than tale on another bad contract.  

[topwop1]

58 minutes ago, Sugashane said:

You have to start Foles if you bring him in.  You can't let your back up make $22 mil.  Then $12 mil dead cap just to cut him in 2021.

 

I'd rather roll with a rookie than tale on another bad contract.  

Which rookie?  Without a1st round pick there's no guarantee any guy they draft would be better than Trubisky would.  I don't think this team wants to go through more QB growing pains with a defense that's ready to compete now. 

Foles knows the scheme and is a better QB than both Trubisky and Daniel.

If Bears can fetch him for a late round pick I would make that trade in a heartbeat.  He only carries a cap hit of $12M for this year and $22M in 2020 and after that you can cut him with a small dead cap figure if things don't work out.

 

[Sugashane]

1 hour ago, topwop1 said:

Which rookie?  Without a1st round pick there's no guarantee any guy they draft would be better than Trubisky would.  I don't think this team wants to go through more QB growing pains with a defense that's ready to compete now. 

Foles knows the scheme and is a better QB than both Trubisky and Daniel.

If Bears can fetch him for a late round pick I would make that trade in a heartbeat.  He only carries a cap hit of $12M for this year and $22M in 2020 and after that you can cut him with a small dead cap figure if things don't work out.

 

There's no guarantee a 1st rounder would be good either. Tru is a 2nd overall pick that we are looking at moving on from. 

Are you going to find a way to unload Tru? Because if you're looking at putting $30+ mil at the QB position you're going to struggle to pay that defense. We have an estimated $13ish milling in cap space and he is costing $22 mil. Cut Long and you're up to $21 mil, then cut Amukamara and you're at $30 mil. So you can fit him, but now that defense has no SS, still meeds a replacement for Trevathan, needs to get ready to pay EJax, and has a gaping hole at CB2. You have like $8mil and have those to work with, plus only about 40 players under contract counting the to-be rookies. Cutting Foles in 2021 isn't a small dead cap, it is over  $12 mil.  

The only way I make that trade is if I can unload Tru. I'm not paying either $22 mil or $9 mil for a back up QB. 

Adding a rookie or two and letting them fight for the position would be better than losing the few really talented players we have. QB contracts are an albatross after the rookie deals, and if you don't have a great QB then overpaying them in favor of paying talent elsewhere is a bad investment IMO. 

Edited October 22, 2019 by Sugashane

[topwop1]

1 hour ago, Sugashane said:

There's no guarantee a 1st rounder would be good either. Tru is a 2nd overall pick that we are looking at moving on from. 

Are you going to find a way to unload Tru? Because if you're looking at putting $30+ mil at the QB position you're going to struggle to pay that defense. We have an estimated $13ish milling in cap space and he is costing $22 mil. Cut Long and you're up to $21 mil, then cut Amukamara and you're at $30 mil. So you can fit him, but now that defense has no SS, still meeds a replacement for Trevathan, needs to get ready to pay EJax, and has a gaping hole at CB2. You have like $8mil and have those to work with, plus only about 40 players under contract counting the to-be rookies. Cutting Foles in 2021 isn't a small dead cap, it is over  $12 mil.  

The only way I make that trade is if I can unload Tru. I'm not paying either $22 mil or $9 mil for a back up QB. 

Adding a rookie or two and letting them fight for the position would be better than losing the few really talented players we have. QB contracts are an albatross after the rookie deals, and if you don't have a great QB then overpaying them in favor of paying talent elsewhere is a bad investment IMO. 

What's a worse investment letting your SB caliber defense rot to waste behind an inept offense that's still trying to figure out who their leader is at QB or being aggresive and trying to do everything you can to win a SB while that SB window is still alive?

Which few talented players are you referring to on defense that we'd risk losing in this scenario?  Danny Trevethan seems like the only real guy that might be hard to keep after this year if they add a QB like Foles but they can always re-sign a guy like Kwiatkoski for cheaper to fill that same role. I like Trevethan and think that he still has some game left but do we really want to overpay for a LB on a multi year deal who will be in his 30's by next season? 

If he's willing to take on a team friendly deal then I would love having him back, but if having him back means not being able to improve on the QB position then I think that's an easy decision because right now despite all these good players we have on defense the team is not going to go anywhere without the QB position being much improved.

Also if you bring in Foles the idea is that he's your QB for the next 2-3 years. You are not bringing him in for a 1 and done scenario.  Besides, if Mitch is even the guy then they would have to pay him upwards of $20M for the 2021 season if he were to have his 5th year option exercised and Foles's cap hit for 2021 is in the same ballpark at $27M.  If you cut Foles after that season it's essentially the same as starting over if they had exercised Mitch's 5th year option and didn't end up re-signing him after 2021, similar to what's happenning in Tennessee with Mariota.

Do you think this team wants to wait that long to find out if Mitch will drastically improve or do you think they will want to go out and get a proven option at QB like Foles while they still have a chance to be great on defense?  I mean to me it's a no brainer, if you have the opportunity to do so, to go out and get a former Super Bowl Champ/MVP who has shown he can get it done knowing that your current QB situation is not going to cut it.

The longer this bad offensive/QB play goes on the more likely Nagy loses his players, especially the D guys.  He can't wait on Mitch much longer or pin his hopes on a rookie to come in and save the day.

Edited October 22, 2019 by topwop1

[Sugashane]

22 minutes ago, topwop1 said:

What's a worse investment letting your SB caliber defense rot to waste behind an inept offense that's still trying to figure out who their leader is at QB or being aggresive and trying to do everything you can to win a SB while that SB window is still alive?

Which few talented players are you referring to on defense that we'd risk losing in this scenario?  Danny Trevethan seems like the only real guy that might be hard to keep after this year if they add a QB like Foles but they can always re-sign a guy like Kwiatkoski for cheaper to fill that same role. I like Trevethan and think that he still has some game left but do we really want to overpay for a LB on a multi year deal who will be in his 30's by next season? 

If he's willing to take on a team friendly deal then I would love having him back, but if having him back means not being able to improve on the QB position then I think that's an easy decision because right now despite all these good players we have on defense the team is not going to go anywhere without the QB position being much improved.

Also if you bring in Foles the idea is that he's your QB for the next 2-3 years. You are not bringing him in for a 1 and done scenario.  Besides, if Mitch is even the guy then they would have to pay him upwards of $20M for the 2021 season if he were to have his 5th year option exercised and Foles's cap hit for 2021 is in the same ballpark at $27M.  If you cut Foles after that season it's essentially the same as starting over if they had exercised Mitch's 5th year option and didn't end up re-signing him after 2021, similar to what's happenning in Tennessee with Mariota.

Do you think this team wants to wait that long to find out if Mitch will drastically improve or do you think they will want to go out and get a proven option at QB like Foles while they still have a chance to be great on defense?  I mean to me it's a no brainer, if you have the opportunity to do so, to go out and get a former Super Bowl Champ/MVP who has shown he can get it done knowing that your current QB situation is not going to cut it.

The longer this bad offensive/QB play goes on the more likely Nagy loses his players, especially the D guys.  He can't wait on Mitch much longer or pin his hopes on a rookie to come in and save the day.

I think with Foles you risk wasting that defense too, they aren't exclusive to one another and he guarantees nothing. If so they wouldn't be looking at tossing him aside for their 6th round rookie. 

I literally just pointed out that to afford him in 2020 you have to cut Long and at least one other contract - likely Amukamara. So you have SS1, CB2, ILB2, and depth. A lack of depth on the DL is killing this defense, and there is a lot of help needed on offense besides just the QB. 

I'd rather overpay on a decent ILB at  $7-9 mil for 2 years rather than dedicating $30+ mil for a mediocre QB for him to play in 2020 and getting cut in 2021. 

At some point Nagy has to show he can develop a QB and create an offense or he needs to be let loose. Overpaying for mediocre vets does nothing but keep you out of the playoffs and worsens your draft slots. Or you get to a wildcard and then the crap QB gets you booted out vs the playoffs. Our OL isn't remotely close to what PHI had on his SB run, our weapons aren't as good as they had, and Nagy isn't as good a playcaller as Pederson. That success was a fluke, and we aren't going to get it out if him here. 

Tru isn't worth his 5th year option, period. I'd be happy to get anything for him, or give a late pick to someone to dump him off and clear his numbers from the books. Nagy can't work with him apparently and failed miserably in developing him, he needs to move on and show he can develop a QB to be worth keeping himself as the HC. 

Foles isn't a proven QB to me, he is a top tier back up that JAX was stupid enough to pay starter money. He has 2 good stretches in his career really, and been nothing worthwhile the rest of the time. If you think he is a savior then I won't try to stop you, but you're saying Nagy can't expect a rookie to outperform him but that is EXACTLY what is going on in Jacksonville. If they are willing to drop him for a late pick then it seems ridiculous to me that he is going to be the savior for Nagy to not have a trash offense. If you actually trust Nagy then let him pick his guy and stack the team around the kid, or pay a higher pick to get a back up from a QB from a real offense that has been developed by a real offensive mind. 

[topwop1]

43 minutes ago, Sugashane said:

I think with Foles you risk wasting that defense too, they aren't exclusive to one another and he guarantees nothing. If so they wouldn't be looking at tossing him aside for their 6th round rookie. 

I literally just pointed out that to afford him in 2020 you have to cut Long and at least one other contract - likely Amukamara. So you have SS1, CB2, ILB2, and depth. A lack of depth on the DL is killing this defense, and there is a lot of help needed on offense besides just the QB. 

I'd rather overpay on a decent ILB at  $7-9 mil for 2 years rather than dedicating $30+ mil for a mediocre QB for him to play in 2020 and getting cut in 2021. 

At some point Nagy has to show he can develop a QB and create an offense or he needs to be let loose. Overpaying for mediocre vets does nothing but keep you out of the playoffs and worsens your draft slots. Or you get to a wildcard and then the crap QB gets you booted out vs the playoffs. Our OL isn't remotely close to what PHI had on his SB run, our weapons aren't as good as they had, and Nagy isn't as good a playcaller as Pederson. That success was a fluke, and we aren't going to get it out if him here. 

Tru isn't worth his 5th year option, period. I'd be happy to get anything for him, or give a late pick to someone to dump him off and clear his numbers from the books. Nagy can't work with him apparently and failed miserably in developing him, he needs to move on and show he can develop a QB to be worth keeping himself as the HC. 

Foles isn't a proven QB to me, he is a top tier back up that JAX was stupid enough to pay starter money. He has 2 good stretches in his career really, and been nothing worthwhile the rest of the time. If you think he is a savior then I won't try to stop you, but you're saying Nagy can't expect a rookie to outperform him but that is EXACTLY what is going on in Jacksonville. If they are willing to drop him for a late pick then it seems ridiculous to me that he is going to be the savior for Nagy to not have a trash offense. If you actually trust Nagy then let him pick his guy and stack the team around the kid, or pay a higher pick to get a back up from a QB from a real offense that has been developed by a real offensive mind. 

I'm speaking more about what could possibly happen after this season.  I don't expect the Bears to trade for Foles before the trade deadline nor do I expect the Jags to trade him before the deadline I'm just hypothetically speaking that I would make that trade now if it was offered for a late pick/conditional draft pick.

With the real possibility that Doug Marrone and the coaching staff will be axed after this season depending on what happens the rest of the way it's very likely that the Jags will look to blow things up in the case he is fired.  They recently traded their best player away which to me indicates they are looking at building for the future.  That's not a knock on Foles, but I don't see how he will fit going forward on a team with a possible new coaching staff that will be in rebuild mode next season, especially if Minshew proves capable of being given the chance to be the long term starter.

I don't think that Foles is a savior per se but I think out of all QB's that could potentially be available to us next offseason he is by far the best option due to his familiarity with Nagy and the offense combined with his track record.

Foles is a guy that the whole team can rally and get behind and feel good about playing for.  Right now you have to wonder how guys are feeling knowing that they are stuck with Mitch/Daniel for the rest of this season or that a rookie QB may possibly be asked to lead this team next year.  This defense is comprised of vets who are built to win in the short term.  We don't have time to wait for a QB to develop 2-3 years from now and while Foles is not elite he is more than good enough to be the guy that can win it all for us in the short term.  He has already shown capable of doing so.

Plus this team needs what little draft picks they have left in 2020 to improve the OL, DL and TE positions.  Taking a flier on a rookie QB with one of those picks is a big risk and I strongly believe not the answer, especially picking outside the 1st round.  We need a good veteran QB to step in right away or else I fear this team will implode.

Edited October 22, 2019 by topwop1

[Sugashane]

3 minutes ago, topwop1 said:

I'm speaking more about what could possibly happen after this season.  I don't expect the Bears to trade for Foles before the trade deadline nor do I expect the Jags to trade him before the deadline I'm just hypothetically speaking that I would make that trade now if it was offered for a late pick/conditional draft pick.

With the real possibility that Doug Marrone and the coaching staff will be axed after this season depending on what happens the rest of the way it's very likely that the Jags will look to blow things up.  They recently traded their best player away which to me indicates they are looking at building for the future.  That's not a knock on Foles, but I don't see how he will fit going forward on a team with a possibly new coaching staff in rebuild mode next season, especially if Minshew proves capable of being the starter long term.

I don't think that Foles is a savior per se but I think out of all QB's that could potentially be available to us next offseason he is by far the best option due to his familiarity with Nagy and the offense combined with his track record.

Foles is a guy that the whole team can get behind and feel good about playing for.  Right now you have to wonder how guys are feeling knowing that they are stuck with Mitch for this season or that a rookie QB may possibly be asked to lead this team next year.  This defense is comprised of vets who are built to win in the short term.

This team need what little draft picks they have the improve the OL, DL and TE positions.  Taking a flier on a rookie QB with one of those limited picks is a big risk.

Thats fair, but i just think Foles is a poor patch up. I see your logic and he likely will be the most proven commodity at QB available, but to me that isn't saying much. I'd bluntly call the move cowardly of Pace and Nagy. 

He may be a fit for Nagy, but I'm no longer sure Nagy is a fit of Chicago. Offensively he has led a dumpster fire, worse than what Tice, Loggains, or Trestman put up for the last 11 games or so. If you're an offensive HC who can't coach an offense then you're a waste of space, same as a defensive HC who trots out a poor defense. He had a great 5 or 6 game stretch vs mostly bad defenses, and has done nothing worthwhile. 

I'm all for the dancing, the Be You talk, whatever. Just put points up. I'd rather see a boring militaristic coach that wins and scores points than a flashy likeable guy that doesn't. 

I don't think the team will care about Foles or whatever. They were hyped for Tru too, results are what matters, and if Foles flops they'd turn on him too I'd bet. 

My argument was without Foles and cutting a few you can be more aggressive and get vets that improve other positions, and that should allow Nagy to develop a young QB. Paying him and Tru over $30 mil combined next year limits what Pace can do to patch those holes, and as you point out it is with little draft capital. If Nagy can't do that then he needs fired and we need to get a better offensive mind with a guy who can back up what his goals are. I'm not sure if Tru is much of a worse player than Nagy is a playcaller. 

To me it seems we are well behind the ball at both. 

[Sugashane]

Hell with it let's just go get Brady. 

https://www.nbcsports.com/chicago/bears/will-tom-brady-be-bears-starting-qb-2020

[topwop1]

3 minutes ago, Sugashane said:

Thats fair, but i just think Foles is a poor patch up. I see your logic and he likely will be the most proven commodity at QB available, but to me that isn't saying much. I'd bluntly call the move cowardly of Pace and Nagy. 

He may be a fit for Nagy, but I'm no longer sure Nagy is a fit of Chicago. Offensively he has led a dumpster fire, worse than what Tice, Loggains, or Trestman put up for the last 11 games or so. If you're an offensive HC who can't coach an offense then you're a waste of space, same as a defensive HC who trots out a poor defense. He had a great 5 or 6 game stretch vs mostly bad defenses, and has done nothing worthwhile. 

I'm all for the dancing, the Be You talk, whatever. Just put points up. I'd rather see a boring militaristic coach that wins and scores points than a flashy likeable guy that doesn't. 

I don't think the team will care about Foles or whatever. They were hyped for Tru too, results are what matters, and if Foles flops they'd turn on him too I'd bet. 

My argument was without Foles and cutting a few you can be more aggressive and get vets that improve other positions, and that should allow Nagy to develop a young QB. Paying him and Tru over $30 mil combined next year limits what Pace can do to patch those holes, and as you point out it is with little draft capital. If Nagy can't do that then he needs fired and we need to get a better offensive mind with a guy who can back up what his goals are. I'm not sure if Tru is much of a worse player than Nagy is a playcaller. 

To me it seems we are well behind the ball at both. 

I agree with you on the part about Nagy, being an offensive coach, has to do a way better job with the offense.  I am just not sure he has the right pieces to do so, mainly the QB.  

Yes he accepted this job knowing that he'd be tasked with having to develop Mitch into a bonafide starting NFL QB but it just hasn't worked up to this point and whether you believe it or not, the QB is the engine that drives the entire offense.

It is becoming painfully evident that Mitch does not have it.  He just doesn't see the field well enough, panics under pressure and his accuracy and footwork is bad.  

Some guys just never get it despite all the coaching and practicing and endless film study, and sadly I believe that is what we are witnessing here with Mitch.

So that said I believe Nagy deserves a shot with another QB if this experiment with Mitch continues to prove futile the rest of this season.  

Pace on the other hand should never be involved in selecting a QB again especially seeing as he is a guy with a defensive background.

[Nads786]

52 minutes ago, topwop1 said:

I agree with you on the part about Nagy, being an offensive coach, has to do a way better job with the offense.  I am just not sure he has the right pieces to do so, mainly the QB.  

Yes he accepted this job knowing that he'd be tasked with having to develop Mitch into a bonafide starting NFL QB but it just hasn't worked up to this point and whether you believe it or not, the QB is the engine that drives the entire offense.

It is becoming painfully evident that Mitch does not have it.  He just doesn't see the field well enough, panics under pressure and his accuracy and footwork is bad.  

Some guys just never get it despite all the coaching and practicing and endless film study, and sadly I believe that is what we are witnessing here with Mitch.

So that said I believe Nagy deserves a shot with another QB if this experiment with Mitch continues to prove futile the rest of this season.  

Pace on the other hand should never be involved in selecting a QB again especially seeing as he is a guy with a defensive background.

What exactly did Matt LeFluer do with Mariota? He looks like a much better offensive coach with Rodgers.

[topwop1]

7 minutes ago, Nads786 said:

What exactly did Matt LeFluer do with Mariota? He looks like a much better offensive coach with Rodgers.

Which proves my point that you need a good QB to win.  Coaching only goes so far. 

[soulman]

6 hours ago, Sugashane said:

You have to start Foles if you bring him in.  You can't let your back up make $22 mil.  Then $12 mil dead cap just to cut him in 2021.

 

I'd rather roll with a rookie than tale on another bad contract.  

He isn't making $22 mil in 2020.  He's making about $16 mil.  Roughly $6 mil of his cap hit is the amortization of his signing bonus.

This year his base is only $5 mil which would be prorated based on the number of games left.  Then JAX swallows his $25 mil signing bonus and we're on the hook for roughly $20-$25 mil of additional salary guarantees.  This is how it breaks down.

Current Contract

Nick Foles signed a 4 year, $88,000,000 contract with the Jacksonville Jaguars, including a $25,000,000 signing bonus, $50,125,000 guaranteed, and an average annual salary of $22,000,000. In 2019, Foles will earn a base salary of $5,000,000, a signing bonus of $25,000,000, a roster bonus of $500,000 and a workout bonus of $250,000, while carrying a cap hit of $12,000,000 and a dead cap value of $45,375,000.

Contract Terms: 4 yr(s) / $88,000,000

Signing Bonus $25,000,000

Average Salary$22,000,000

GTD at Sign:$45,125,000

Total GTD:$50,125,000

Free Agent:2023 /

				Bonus Breakdown			Cap Details		Cash Details
Year		Age	Base Salary	Signing	Roster	Workout	Cap Hit	Dead Cap	Yearly Cash
2019		30	$5,000,000	$6,250,000	$500,000	$250,000	$12,000,000	$45,375,000	$30,750,000($30,750,000)
2020		31	$15,125,000	$6,250,000	$500,000	$250,000	$22,125,000	$33,875,000	$15,875,000($46,625,000)
Potential Out: 2021, 2 yr, $46,625,000; $12,500,000 dead cap
2021		32	$14,875,000	$6,250,000	$5,500,000	$250,000	$26,875,000	$12,500,000	$20,625,000($67,250,000)
2022		33	$20,000,000	$6,250,000	$500,000	$250,000	$27,000,000	$6,250,000	$20,750,000($88,000,000)
2023		34

 

In 2020 his cap hit is $15.875 mil

In 2021 it's $20.625

In 2022 it's $20.750

Considering that top tier starters are getting in excess of $30 mil per year that's not a bad deal if he works out and we keep Trubisky through 2020 at a salary of just $735k and unless he surpasses Foles we don't pick up his 5th year option but may sign him for another year for far less.

If Trubisky does get his **** together and surpasses Foles his $45.125 mil guaranteed money will be paid out after the 2020 season so we're off the hook with zero dead cap after that and we sign Trubisky long term in 2021 or 2022.   We need Foles or someone like him to compete.

Edited October 22, 2019 by soulman

[WindyCity]

If the Bears lose to the Chargers and the offense looks inept again.

Prince
HaHa
Mike Davis [Traded or Cut]
Taylor Gabriel

The Bears should try and move these guys for picks and to let younger guys play.

[WindyCity]

Do not trade for a big money QB we need the cap space.

QBs I would call about

Teddy Bridgewater, I expect they hang up.

Nick Mullins

Cooper Rush, Dallas.

Josh Rosen, only if it is a cheap pick swap