Jets cut G Kelechi Osemele after he elects to have shoulder surgery

[kramxel]

Just because guys play injured all the time doesn't mean they can't have the surgery when they want to, it's their prerogative.

It's not the team's choice to make when it comes to delaying surgeries.

 

This is not slavery, guys!

 

[BackinBlack]

also to the jets fans who are saying he was healthy enough to play, and then got benched so now he wants surgery... 

he thought he was healthy enough to play... the jets essentially told him you are not playing good enough so we are benching you..
based off that maybe KO decided hmm maybe I am not healthy enough to play?

how is that so tough to understand lol

[ILoveTheVikings]

I can see where the Jet's are coming from depending on what is factual and what isn't factual.

If the injury being talked about truly is one he suffered while with the Raiders then I can completely understand the Jets point of view. He wasn't injured on their watch so why should the Jets have to pay for that? 

But if what Oseleme is saying is 100% accurate then I side with him completely and I am heavily leaning towards believing him.

[JonStark]

No one WANTS to get surgery. I highly doubt he would proceed with it if it weren't best for his health. 

[Broncofan]

6 minutes ago, ILoveTheVikings said:

I can see where the Jet's are coming from depending on what is factual and what isn't factual.

If the injury being talked about truly is one he suffered while with the Raiders then I can completely understand the Jets point of view. He wasn't injured on their watch so why should the Jets have to pay for that? 

But if what Oseleme is saying is 100% accurate then I side with him completely and I am heavily leaning towards believing him.

The Jets docs did a physical to clear him before the trade was completed.   Once the Jets agreed to take him on, they assumed the risk, because they had the chance to decide if his injuries were worth finishing the trade.

The Jets had their chance.   They took on Osemele and any injury that came with him.   That's why there's a physical pre-trade completion.

The Jets have ZERO basis on their current position.

The one guy who I don't get is GM Joe Douglas.   He had nothing to do with the original trade in March, he was hired by NYJ in June.  He should be telling the rest of the FO this is a lost cause.   He's really losing a lot of lustre if this is really his position here.

Edited October 24, 2019 by Broncofan

[NJC33]

49 minutes ago, sammymvpknight said:

But you understand that you're wrong. Malingering is an actual diagnosis that is used when you don't have another more appropriate diagnosis, it's a diagnosis of exclusion. The guy has a torn labrum that could very easily cause his symptoms. That's his diagnosis, and it disqualifies him from being a malingerer. Just because it is common for NFL players to play through injuries that they shouldn't (cough, Mahomes, cough), doesn't mean you change diagnosis. 

It is very possible that he played through an injury that he probably should NOT have, and his condition and symptoms worsened. But that's what happens when you play through an injury. That's why when you or I go to the doctor with a torn labrum, we get instructed to stop doing what's hurting our shoulder. The moment that the Jets team physician medically owned Osemele, they owned the condition. They owned the possibility that his shoulder could worsen or limit him. They owned it. They don't want to own it...and there in lies the problem.

The fact that they are fighting back on this and that Jets fans are going along with it is disgusting. It's undoubtedly part of the reason you have a dysfunctional organization that has a long history of losing. If I wasn't a Jets fan, I'd be looking to get out of town. I wouldn't be especially interested in making the Jets a winner.

I was very hesitant to respond because I knew the reaction it would trigger, but you asked for my opinion, so this is for everyone questioning my ethics lol. 

I may have used malingering out of context, my mistake. I have never once questioned the diagnosis, but I do question whether or not the circumstances of the injury have gotten any worse; based on everything I've read, the only change in circumstance has been Osemles status on the depth chart. 

Unpopular opinion: I don't blame the Jets for feeling cheated. From their prospective, they gave Osemele $12mil to play football, starter/back up all the same, and believe that if KO were still starting he'd be willing to push off surgery till after the season (It's fair to assume this is what both sides agreed on before the trade was finalized). With that being said, I've also never supported this childish stubbornness from Douglas and co. It was obvious how this would all play out, and simply idiotic of the Jets to think otherwise. 

In short, I believe KO is making a business decision to prepare for his next contract, and I can understand/respect that. I can also understand why someone who just gave the guy $12mil would feel bamboozled if they didn't believe the injury had gotten any worse, which once again, from what I've read it hasn't. This is my opinion as an outsider, the Jets on the other hand, should've realized the microscope in which they operate under and how this would be perceived by the media.

[Daniel]

1 hour ago, Broncofan said:

Yeah, the grievance is definitely the first step.  And it's a slam dunk.

The issue with the 1st MD opinion is if his opinion is simply "needs surgery, but it can wait until the offseason".  That's actually a decision that's taken and accepted in many cases, so it's a judgment call.   That's where it will be difficult to prove a standard of care was set and missed.     You can definitely get medical experts to advocate that surgery isn't the immediate standard in labrum tears, while at the same time recognizing that with 3 outside opinions, the Jets should acquiese and don't have a case to fine/penalize him.   But, the last part of the jury is really the most important part in the US - in Canada, this goes to a judge, and it has little to no chance.  In the US, I totally get where you are coming from.

The fact the "standard of care" is fuzzier on timing of surgery (now vs. later), I don't put anything on the Jets initially - until they started ignoring the 2nd & then the 3rd opinion.    THAT is a major no-no.    The only way the 1st MD is liable is if they said "doesn't need surgery at all".    Again, though, your last point on a jury is why I defer to the legal guys.  

That's part of the key issue to me: exactly what the team doctor's told him vs. what the other doctors did.  If the team doctors told him no surgery needed at all, it sounds like a slam dunk.  If they told him no surgery til later, but deferring on the surgery could aggravate the injury, then he's still got a claim there.  In Tennessee at least, you need to show harm for the purposes of damages.

52 minutes ago, ramssuperbowl99 said:

So, in practice, the way to prove a case against the doctor would be that he let the team influence his opinion by some written communication, that probably doesn't exist.

Showing damages would be a little easier right? The risk for future injury isn't needed when you have records of all the pain medication he's taking to play.

Not exactly, at least in my opinion.  There are lots of ways to show that the team doctors' judgment is biased towards getting players to play.  Between all the emails, texts, phone calls, etc. exchanged between the doc and team officials, I'd bet money that there's something that you can pretty easily spin to make it look like influencing the doctor's opinion.  Even if it's something as innocuous as "how soon can we get him on the field?" you could use it.  Then there's the circumstantial evidence, which is the most obviously damning.  That's what everyone here seems to already be getting to.  It's hard for me to imagine a jury not being there as well.  The team pays the doctor's salary, and now with these fines, the organization is really, really showing that they will do whatever to try and force him to play.

That's a good point on pain, but mere pain may not be enough (I'd need to know the law in NY or NJ, and I don't) if he'd have pain either way.  Typically, you need to show that the doctor's actions resulted in some kind of harm (or would have resulted in some kind of harm) to carry the day, and as I said above, there's not enough info about the specifics to say if that's the case IMO.

Realistically, if you wanted to rope the doctors in for this but didn't want to try to go med mal, I'd throw a count of civil conspiracy, and say they colluded with the team to mislead him so that he'd play, despite the detrimental effect it would have on his health.

[Broncofan]

4 minutes ago, NJC33 said:

I was very hesitant to respond because I knew the reaction it would trigger, but you asked for my opinion, so this is for everyone questioning my ethics lol. 

I may have used malingering out of context, my mistake. I have never once questioned the diagnosis, but I do question whether or not the circumstances of the injury have gotten any worse; based on everything I've read, the only change in circumstance has been Osemles status on the depth chart. 

Unpopular opinion: I don't blame the Jets for feeling cheated. From their prospective, they gave Osemele $12mil to play football, starter/back up all the same, and believe that if KO were still starting he'd be willing to push off surgery till after the season (It's fair to assume this is what both sides agreed on before the trade was finalized). With that being said, I've also never supported this childish stubbornness from Douglas and co. It was obvious how this would all play out, and simply idiotic of the Jets to think otherwise. 

In short, I believe KO is making a business decision to prepare for his next contract, and I can understand/respect that. I can also understand why someone who just gave the guy $12mil would feel bamboozled if they didn't believe the injury had gotten any worse, which once again, from what I've read it hasn't. This is my opinion as an outsider, the Jets on the other hand, should've realized the microscope in which they operate under and how this would be perceived by the media.

A torn labrum can definitely get worse.  The very nature of labrum injuries is most commonly wear and tear leading to damage.     
 

If Osemele had a complete tear at the time of the trade then the Jets doc shouldn’t have cleared him at the time of the trade.  It’s still 100 percent still on the Jets.   The fact that 3 outside MD’s say it’s a complete tear and needs surgery now completely removes any viable position the NYJ FO can take. 
 

The FO is completely in the wrong.  They may feel differently but that’s still not changing the fact it’s a slam-dunk decision.   GM Joe Douglas wasn’t part of that decision and he should be telling everyone to get in line no matter how they feel.   That’s what a good GM would do.  I thought he was a good hire.  It’s time for him to show if he is.      

[ILoveTheVikings]

16 minutes ago, Broncofan said:

The Jets docs did a physical to clear him before the trade was completed.   Once the Jets agreed to take him on, they assumed the risk, because they had the chance to decide if his injuries were worth finishing the trade.

The Jets had their chance.   They took on Osemele and any injury that came with him.   That's why there's a physical pre-trade completion.

The Jets have ZERO basis on their current position.

The one guy who I don't get is GM Joe Douglas.   He had nothing to do with the original trade in March, he was hired by NYJ in June.  He should be telling the rest of the FO this is a lost cause.   He's really losing a lot of lustre if this is really his position here.

Which is why I said I'm heavily leaning towards Osemele. I also doubt Osemele is 100% squeaky clean in this mess but the Jets BY FAR seem like the ones in the wrong here IMO.

[NJC33]

9 minutes ago, Broncofan said:

A torn labrum can definitely get worse.  The very nature of labrum injuries is most commonly wear and tear leading to damage.     
 

If Osemele had a complete tear at the time of the trade then the Jets doc shouldn’t have cleared him at the time of the trade.  It’s still 100 percent still on the Jets.   The fact that 3 outside MD’s say it’s a complete tear and needs surgery now completely removes any viable position the NYJ FO can take. 
 

The FO is completely in the wrong.  They may feel differently but that’s still not changing the fact it’s a slam-dunk decision.   GM Joe Douglas wasn’t part of that decision and he should be telling everyone to get in line no matter how they feel.   That’s what a good GM would do.  I thought he was a good hire.  It’s time for him to show if he is.      

I think the fact that Joe Douglas is willing to take this stance despite not having any connection to the Osemele trade is telling in and of itself. 

Obviously the injury could’ve gotten worse, but I don’t believe the Jets would be subjecting themselves to this type of scrutiny if it had.

None of this changes the fact that we both believe the Jets are wrong in this situation, I’m just trying to provide prospective. 

[Broncofan]

2 minutes ago, NJC33 said:

I think the fact that Joe Douglas is willing to take this stance despite not having any connection to the Osemele trade is telling in and of itself. 

Obviously the injury could’ve gotten worse, but I don’t believe the Jets would be subjecting themselves to this type of scrutiny if it had.

None of this changes the fact that we both believe the Jets are wrong in this situation, I’m just trying to provide prospective. 

What it tells me is that either Joe Douglas isn’t that good as ppl thought or he doesn’t wield final say.   Neither are good signs for the org - personally there’s too much history for me to think the former (Douglas isn’t as smart as ppl say).   I suspect it’s the latter (he doesn’t have final say.  He should).  

[Totty]

If this injury was from his time in Oakland, did he not have to pass a physical in order for the trade to go through, as well?  Did they intentionally not catch it?  Or let it slide?  

[ramssuperbowl99]

14 minutes ago, Daniel said:

Not exactly, at least in my opinion.  There are lots of ways to show that the team doctors' judgment is biased towards getting players to play.  Between all the emails, texts, phone calls, etc. exchanged between the doc and team officials, I'd bet money that there's something that you can pretty easily spin to make it look like influencing the doctor's opinion.  Even if it's something as innocuous as "how soon can we get him on the field?" you could use it.  Then there's the circumstantial evidence, which is the most obviously damning.  That's what everyone here seems to already be getting to.  It's hard for me to imagine a jury not being there as well.  The team pays the doctor's salary, and now with these fines, the organization is really, really showing that they will do whatever to try and force him to play.

That's a good point on pain, but mere pain may not be enough (I'd need to know the law in NY or NJ, and I don't) if he'd have pain either way.  Typically, you need to show that the doctor's actions resulted in some kind of harm (or would have resulted in some kind of harm) to carry the day, and as I said above, there's not enough info about the specifics to say if that's the case IMO.

Realistically, if you wanted to rope the doctors in for this but didn't want to try to go med mal, I'd throw a count of civil conspiracy, and say they colluded with the team to mislead him so that he'd play, despite the detrimental effect it would have on his health.

The number of times I have asked a lawyer on this website a question and gotten an answer that was shorter than the question is zero. I know this is because I'm an idiot and ask stupid questions, but still.

[Daniel]

Just now, ramssuperbowl99 said:

The number of times I have asked a lawyer on this website a question and gotten an answer that was shorter than the question is zero. I know this is because I'm an idiot and ask stupid questions, but still.

We like to hear ourselves talk.

[ramssuperbowl99]

Just now, Daniel said:

We like to hear ourselves talk.

Damn you and your billable hours.