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Week 8 - Denver Broncos (2-5) @ Indianapolis Colts (4-2)


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11 minutes ago, Broncofan said:

 

 This would move our comp pick up a round to end of 5th (from end of 6th) f Callahan didn't play, if I understand the formula explanation on OTC.   Get well for 2020, Callahan.  We need you then, rest up.

Elway - please for the love of god stop thinking you're getting good deals on guys who are constantly injured. Spoiler alert: they miss games in bunches. He should be as devoted to signing guys who have stayed healthy in the NFL as he is to not picking Alabama guys. 

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9 minutes ago, BroncoBruin said:

Elway - please for the love of god stop thinking you're getting good deals on guys who are constantly injured. Spoiler alert: they miss games in bunches. He should be as devoted to signing guys who have stayed healthy in the NFL as he is to not picking Alabama guys. 

To be fair, though, Callahan is young, has talent, and fits so well in Fangio's scheme, and played at a high level when on the field.  And the market price discount reflected the injury risk.   

It's when he spends on guys like Tramaine Brock, Menelik Watson (which was a reflection of how bad FA T was that year), Jared Veldheer or even Ron Leary (the fact he took him but didn't even consider Andrew Whitworth when T was a much bigger need and Whitworth had a clean history was still mind-boggling)  that it rarely works out, but also has such little long-term gain built in for the years (or the $, or both).  All of them had signs of decline at signing (even Leary), so much bigger flags IMO. 

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Ron Leary (the fact he took him but didn't even consider Andrew Whitworth when T was a much bigger need and Whitworth had a clean history was still mind-boggling)

Going after Leary and not even sniffing around Whitworth was the beginning of the end of my Elway support. Such a telegraphed bad move.

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In case it's not clear what's at stake, Klis & Renck both confirm the wait on Lock is to finally see where the season's at post-bye....and remember, not activating Lock isn't just about how many games he starts (0), it's also no practice or scrimmage time for the entire season.    That's just as important for 9+ weeks than any possible game action.   Again, I'm not sold at all that Lock is our QBOTF - but we need to find out sooner rather than later - and frankly, even his progress (or lack thereof) in practices would be important information for the org to have.

So, let's go Colts.  

 

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Callahan was signed for 2020 on it is what it is.

This is just not true. All the FA moves we made were with the intention of winning in 19/20. Just because we suck doesn't mean moves were made for next season. We went into this summer with the clear intention of putting the best team on the field to win, age of our free agent signings be dammed. Elway wanted, and still wants, to limp into a WC spot.

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9 minutes ago, BroncosFan2010 said:

This is just not true. All the FA moves we made were with the intention of winning in 19/20. Just because we suck doesn't mean moves were made for next season. We went into this summer with the clear intention of putting the best team on the field to win, age of our free agent signings be dammed. Elway wanted, and still wants, to limp into a WC spot.

With the Lock and Fant picks I just didn't see it that way. Also, Joe was always going to be just a bridge qb when those moves were made.

Kareem Jackson was a cultural builder that provides veteran leadership. 

Juwan James was the only move that was to compete asap imo. Callahan had a foot injury in Chicago that's why he came so cheap.

We're gonna get a higher comp. Pick it is what it is.

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50 minutes ago, thebestever6 said:

With the Lock and Fant picks I just didn't see it that way. Also, Joe was always going to be just a bridge qb when those moves were made.

Kareem Jackson was a cultural builder that provides veteran leadership. 

Juwan James was the only move that was to compete asap imo. Callahan had a foot injury in Chicago that's why he came so cheap.

We're gonna get a higher comp. Pick it is what it is.

Come on the Flacco & Callahan (and James/Jackson) signings were very much a win-now moves.  You don't spend a 4th round pick and 18M a year on Flacco for future building, nor 7M on a CB to be a bigger 2020 impact player.   That's totally revisionist.  

Callahan & James & Kareem Jackson were complete win-now signings.  Callahan & James were good risks for a rebuilder because they were also young enough that they have a chance to still be good when we could be contenders (2021).   They're signed that long.   Jackson less so at age 31, but can't dispute his play now.  The draft isn't supposed to be thinking 2019 - it's meant to hit 2020+.   He went Fant because he wanted a playmaking TE for 2020.   But that doesn't mean somehow all of his other moves in FA were future-based.   FA is where you get immediate impact guys - for a rebuilder, you also should go value and long-term gain potential in there.   But you are definitely going for the now when you pay a guy 7M a year.  It's not about their future contribution.

To suggest that Elway wasn't thinking win-now with his FA moves is completely unsupported by his actions, and frankly, the purpose of FA in general.    They were clearly present-based, just some of them have future gain potential (Callahan & James).   But Elway's refusal to commit Lock to IR-return now shows exactly that he can't shake the win-now mentality.   If he was all about rebuild, it wouldn't even be a Q, Lock would be practicing now.  Even if he's not ready to play for a long time - the practice/scrimmage time helps him progress more than just sitting and waiting it out.     FTR, I supported the Callahan & James signings because they have future building baked into the signings - but not because they're entirely for the future.  There's clearly a win-now element driving the signing first & foremost in Elway's eyes.

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52 minutes ago, Broncofan said:

To suggest that Elway wasn't thinking win-now with his FA moves is completely unsupported by his actions, and frankly, the purpose of FA in general.    They were clearly present-based, just some of them have future gain potential (Callahan & James). 

What was Elway supposed to do keep Keenum? Dude was a bum and Flacco was an upgrade I think that's worth a 4th and I still do. Drew Lock was never going to learn a thing from Case Keenum. Just because the rebuild isn't stride for stride what you personally would do doesn't mean it's not happening. I will wait to criticize the Lock situation once the trade deadline passes if he's not activated from the IR by then I will be agitated. 

You said it before Callahan was discounted due to coming off injury in 2018 so that signing leans more to 2020 plus. 

Kareem Jackson is equivalent to b dawk in 2009 culture builders.

The riddick signing was a head scratcher I will give you that, but all of this offseason looked soooooo much better than years past and I'm fine with it barring the trade deadline moves, and rest of the year direction.

 

It's rare teams tank like the Dolphins or Browns. Who ever was expecting that is outright delusional .

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3 minutes ago, thebestever6 said:

What was Elway supposed to do keep Keenum? Dude was a bum and Flacco was an upgrade I think that's worth a 4th and I still do. Drew Lock was never going to learn a thing from Case Keenum. Just because the rebuild isn't stride for stride what you personally would do doesn't mean it's not happening. I will wait to criticize the Lock situation once the trade deadline passes if he's not activated from the IR by then I will be agitated. 

You said it before Callahan was discounted due to coming off injury in 2018 so that signing leans more to 2020 plus. 

Kareem Jackson is equivalent to b dawk in 2009.

The riddick signing was a head scratcher I will give you that, but all of this offseason looked soooooo much better than years past and I'm fine with it barring the trade deadline moves, and rest of the year direction.

 

It's rare teams tank like the Dolphins or Browns. Who ever was expecting that is outright delusional .

Elway clearly manages to win now.   To suggest he's thinking mostly about the future is beyond delusional.  Clinton McDonald, Tramaine Brock, Jared Veldheer.   Signing Theo Riddick.   Trading for Joe Flacco.    Kareem Jackson is a 31 year old FA signing.    Elway committed to IR-returning Tim Patrick before committing an IR-return to Drew Lock. 

It's not even a question.

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3 minutes ago, Broncofan said:

Elway clearly manages to win now.   To suggest he's thinking mostly about the future is beyond delusional.  Clinton McDonald, Tramaine Brock, Jared Veldheer.   Signing Theo Riddick.   Trading for Joe Flacco.    Kareem Jackson is a 31 year old FA signing.    Elway committed to IR-returning Tim Patrick before committing an IR-return to Drew Lock. 

It's not even a question.

You're bringing up 2018! I'm talking about this past offseason. 

Trading for Flacco helped cool off the Lock in the first round talk I'd make the move every single time over again. 

Kareem Jackson like Brian Dawkins is a culture builder.

Drew Lock the script isn't done being written wait a week and then we bash Elway. Trade deadline. 

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5 minutes ago, thebestever6 said:

You're bringing up 2018! I'm talking about this past offseason. 

Trading for Flacco helped cool off the Lock in the first round talk I'd make the move every single time over again. 

Kareem Jackson like Brian Dawkins is a culture builder.

Drew Lock the script isn't done being written wait a week and then we both Elway. Trade deadline. 

You've already conceded that waiting on Lock IR-return has zero bluff potential for the trade deadline since that decision is 10 days after the deadline.    You can't argue 2017-2018 because it's undeniable. 

But now the 2019 signing sof Flacco & Kareem Jackson, at age 31,  as supporting the argument that's he's NOT thinking win-now as his default mode?   Re-read that last line, take a long hard look and put yourself in another team's shoes, and see how much sense that statement makes.  

Honestly, it's just total homerism to suggest that Elway isn't thinking win-now as his default mode.   We're better than that. 

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4 minutes ago, Broncofan said:

You've already conceded that waiting on Lock has zero bluff potential for the trade deadline since that decision is 10 days after the deadline.   Honestly, it's just total homerism to suggest that Elway isn't thinking win-now as his default mode.   We're better than that. 

No I haven't conceded that at all with drew lock. I've said you had a fair point to waiting on Tim patrick.

The day drew lock returns to practice is the day the rest of the gms around the league see Denver's number one priority isn't winning football games!

I fault Elway zero sitting on that hand until the deadline is there to get maximum value for the assets Broncos currently have.

You're better than that!!! Have you been watching Skip Bayless too much?

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8 minutes ago, thebestever6 said:

No I haven't conceded that at all with drew lock. I've said you had a fair point to waiting on Tim patrick.

The day drew lock returns to practice is the day the rest of the gms around the league see Denver's number one priority isn't winning football games!

I fault Elway zero sitting on that hand until the deadline is there to get maximum value for the assets Broncos currently have.

You're better than that!!! Have you been watching Skip Bayless too much?

Elway's MO hasn't changed.  Win-now first, sell-off only when the season is lost.   2017, 2018, and 2019.   His FA signings, both in off-season, just before the reg. season, cap restructures, have all been based this way.  He's only sold guys when their contracts are up.    Honestly, it's all there.   I don't say that to deny all the good Elway's done in the past, and what he still brings (excellent contract design, strong UFA evaluation, and midlevel FA evaluation) - but beyond QB evaluation, and his horrendous 2013-7 Day 1-2 draft history, his absolute refusal to do anything but start with win-now moves is why we are so talent-poor now, and were cap-strapped to the point we've had to restructure 2x in the past 2 years, when we've had no realistic chance to contend.   Trying to cherry-pick 2-3 moves in the scope of the entire history just screams homerism.   And yes, we're better than that.   

We don't have to agree, that's fine. But best to move on, our points are made.  Your arguments to say Elway is thinking future-first includes Flacco / 31-year old Kareem Jackson signings as support he's thinking future-first.  And trying to exclude everything he's done before this year.  Think on how that comes off.   Moving on.

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