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Week 8 - Denver Broncos (2-5) @ Indianapolis Colts (4-2)


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45 minutes ago, Broncofan said:

Elway's MO hasn't changed.  Win-now first, sell-off only when the season is lost.   2017, 2018, and 2019.   

When this changes by next week am I going to get an apology for being called a homer? Will always be objective and not reactionary. If everything was based off of history history wouldn't be re written. 

All I said was wait 5 days than criticize because this offseason/year has felt different.  And I get accused of being a homer? SMH if Tuesday passes and no deals are done and Drew Lock isn't off IR I'll say I'll eat crow.

Edited by thebestever6
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3 hours ago, thebestever6 said:

When this changes by next week am I going to get an apology for being called a homer? Will always be objective and not reactionary. If everything was based off of history history wouldn't be re written. 

All I said was wait 5 days than criticize because this offseason/year has felt different.  And I get accused of being a homer? SMH if Tuesday passes and no deals are done and Drew Lock isn't off IR I'll say I'll eat crow.

I don’t think if they make trades/activate anyone by Tuesday it means Elway is playing toward the future...I mean he almost has too.  Only an inept GM wouldn’t be moving on from Harris (who definitely isn’t going to re-sign) regardless of whether or not Denver wins/loses.

Elway himself stated he didn’t want to trade anyone until after the Colts game, but Sanders forced their hand.  That comment alone leads me to believe Elway is still trying to compete for the playoffs and has not given up on this season.  IMO, the Colts game is the gauge on whether to continue to compete or if it’s time to sell.  Elway’s obvious hope/dream scenario is that Denver beats the Colts, beats a poor Browns team.  They’re able to go into the bye week 4-5 with an extra week to prepare for the Vikings and get back to .500.  Now a loss vs the Colts pretty much mathematically eliminates Denver without a historic run and now it’s time to move to next year.

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2 minutes ago, germ-x said:

I don’t think if they make trades/activate anyone by Tuesday it means Elway is playing toward the future...I mean he almost has too.  Only an inept GM wouldn’t be moving on from Harris (who definitely isn’t going to re-sign) regardless of whether or not Denver wins/loses.

Elway himself stated he didn’t want to trade anyone until after the Colts game, but Sanders forced their hand.  That comment alone leads me to believe Elway is still trying to compete for the playoffs and has not given up on this season.  IMO, the Colts game is the gauge on whether to continue to compete or if it’s time to sell.  Elway’s obvious hope/dream scenario is that Denver beats the Colts, beats a poor Browns team.  They’re able to go into the bye week 4-5 with an extra week to prepare for the Vikings and get back to .500.  Now a loss vs the Colts pretty much mathematically eliminates Denver without a historic run and now it’s time to move to next year.

So what are we talking about here then serious question not being dismissive germ? This past offseason along with the 2018 draft give me optimism and a lot of it. 

(2013-2017 was a joke drafting) Elway messed up royally in the 2017 NFL draft, and free agency prior to this year. I was the first one on this board back when Peyton was here that John Elway is over rated being heralded as a top 5 gm. Now I believe he's way too unerrated and I wanna wait 5 days and remain objective until he doesn't do what I think is necessary. 

Are we to the point where no matter what Elway does and how the roster is managed he will garner unwarranted criticism? Bc all I'm saying is wait 1 more week too bash and get the pitch forks I'm being objective. 

I'm not spinning some narrative that this is Elways greatest comeback since the drive and he's about to make his masterpiece. (Even though I could get to that point this time next week if BIG things happen.)

Let it play out till Tuesday and I'll eat crow for being wrong. If Harris goes for a 2, and we get good compensations for Wolfe or others are people going to give John credit or is it going to be he had to do this?

John's playing his senile, losing it tongue in cheek poker game, and the results of that game are to be determined. 

 

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22 minutes ago, thebestever6 said:

So what are we talking about here then serious question not being dismissive germ? This past offseason along with the 2018 draft give me optimism and a lot of it. 

(2013-2017 was a joke drafting) Elway messed up royally in the 2017 NFL draft, and free agency prior to this year. I was the first one on this board back when Peyton was here that John Elway is over rated being heralded as a top 5 gm. Now I believe he's way too unerrated and I wanna wait 5 days and remain objective until he doesn't do what I think is necessary. 

Are we to the point where no matter what Elway does and how the roster is managed he will garner unwarranted criticism? Bc all I'm saying is wait 1 more week too bash and get the pitch forks I'm being objective. 

I'm not spinning some narrative that this is Elways greatest comeback since the drive and he's about to make his masterpiece. (Even though I could get to that point this time next week if BIG things happen.)

Let it play out till Tuesday and I'll eat crow for being wrong. If Harris goes for a 2, and we get good compensations for Wolfe or others are people going to give John credit or is it going to be he had to do this?

John's playing his senile, losing it tongue in cheek poker game, and the results of that game are to be determined. 

 

Well I feel like you’re only looking at this week and not the entirety of where this team is at, which ultimately falls on Elway because of bad drafting, bad FA signings, and bad coaching hires. 

IMO, Elway has delayed looking toward the future since the SB win and has continually tried to compete and in that process the team has gotten worse and worse.  

Now in the sense of this week.  I will be happy with a 2 for Harris and will applaud Elway for getting it, just like I did when Sanders was traded as I was someone who thought we were looking at a 3rd for Harris and a 4 for Sanders.  However, that doesn’t make up for the fact that he waited too long to move these players or the fact that he’s been basically forced into trading them because of how poor this team is.

I do think Elway has drafted better the past 2 years and hope that continues.  I’m also not someone who faults the Lock pick even if he fails, I’d have made that pick all day and taken the chance (even though after seeing him in person I don’t think he’s the answer).  There does seem to be a shift in Elway, at least when it comes to the draft which is a big step.  I think the next step is embracing that Denver is 2-3 years away and moving Miller for a haul (if the right deal is there) in the offseason.  

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21 minutes ago, germ-x said:

Well I feel like you’re only looking at this week and not the entirety of where this team is at, which ultimately falls on Elway because of bad drafting, bad FA signings, and bad coaching hires. 

How long are we gonna harp on the VJ hire? It was terrrrribbbble everyone saw it coming time moves one way.

-this coaching staff gives me optimism the same way John fox did after McDaniels. What the peak is remains to be seen.

Free agent signings last year especially with Vons restructure makes me nauseated as well as Keenum .

- all those players are gone and this is the 3rd youngest team in the NFL

 

I actually agreed with your whole post including the Miller answer and iffy on the Lock statement. 

Is Drew a Franchise qb in the top of the second round doubt that it's hard to get one in that area. He is a very good gamble as teams like Tennessee, and green bay also had some interest in him. I think he can be a serviceable starter for a couple of years minimum especially with the way this coaching staff inspires confidence in me after VJ.

VJ era = ugly bbws/ dragons 

Fangio era = optimism being on the bachelor with a bunch of babes you might end up with the crazy one but the potential is there.

 

 

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5 minutes ago, AkronsWitness said:

Anybody else wondering if Elway is watching what Haskins looks like under a crappy offense and is going to hold off on Lock this entire season

No, ones 21 and had 1 year of college starting experience. 

One is 22 with 4 years college starting experience, better OC, and better offense once James returns.

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I will also add that I don’t completely fault Elway for this in the sense that the majority of the time not competing=losing your job.  Even now reasonable fans like us understand that to get Denver back to relevance will be a 2-3 year process if everything goes right and just because you attempt to rebuild/retool doesn’t mean it will work.  If if Elway doesn’t publicly admit a bit of a rebuild (and he won’t) uneducated Denver fans will be calling for his head throughout the process.  

I also like this staff.  It hasn’t been smooth this season, but the majority of this staff are long time NFL coaches with a terrific track record of success.  If Elway gets some talent on this team I truly believe this staff can get the most out of it.

Elway’s success as a GM has mostly been on the defensive side of the ball.  Ultimately though, this team needs a QB so badly, whether it ends up being Lock or not, that I feel there needs to be quality resources spent along the OL.  Elway made a few last season with the signing of James and drafting Risner, but I think there needs to be another quality signing and high draft pick in that mix.  Best chance you can give a young QB is giving him a quality OL.  He’ll still be pressured (if anyone saw the NO/DAL game even the best OLs get worked in this league, which I think casual fans don’t understand), but at least whoever that QB is won’t be getting destroyed on the majority of plays.

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You're the voice of reason  @germ-x there's not one thing I disagree with that post. I do think if certain dominos fall correctly this team could be 8-8 / competing for the playoffs next year. 

A lot and I mean a lot of things need to go right. Lock is literally a glove fit for this system whether you believe he's the LONG term answer or not.

I got a feeling Giants were a year ahead on their rebuild and 2020 is really gonna be the year we see this thing take a nice shape ala the Giants this year.

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38 minutes ago, AkronsWitness said:

Anybody else wondering if Elway is watching what Haskins looks like under a crappy offense and is going to hold off on Lock this entire season

Sure, but that shouldn't affect the IR-return decision, since no IR-return means no scrimmage or practice time.  That's the mind-numbing part of the delay - it doesn't matter if Elway doesn't think Lock is ready to play - he still needs actual reps in practice/scrimmage to improve.   Waiting until next year to do that is sheer lunacy.   And frankly, so is passing on Nov/Dec reps. 

And consider this - Haskins has ONE year of college starter experience.   Lock has 3.5 seasons as a starter.   If Lock is only as far as Haskins is prep-wise (whose tools are just that good and his skills in college vs. elite D's also translates) after playing in the SEC - that's a huge problem. 

Haskins shouldn't be playing right now - but Lock should be as long, or further along than Haskins.  Now, neither is ready to succeed right now.  Either way though, it shouldn't influence the decision for IR-return at all.   Lock needs the reps at NFL-speed / complexity; the way to dip into the shallow end is to get as much scrimmage / practice time as possible.  It's not to prevent any of that exposure until year 2.

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2 minutes ago, Broncofan said:

Sure, but that shouldn't affect the IR-return decision, since no IR-return means no scrimmage or practice time.  That's the mind-numbing part of the delay - it doesn't matter if Elway doesn't think Lock is ready to play - he still needs actual reps in practice/scrimmage to improve.   Waiting until next year to do that is sheer lunacy.   And frankly, so is passing on Nov/Dec reps. 

And consider this - Haskins has ONE year of college starter experience.   Lock has 3.5 seasons as a starter.   If Lock is only as far as Haskins is prep-wise (whose tools are just that good and his skills in college vs. elite D's also translates) after playing in the SEC - that's a huge problem. 

Haskins shouldn't be playing right now - but Lock should be as long, or further along than Haskins.  Now, neither is ready to succeed right now.  Either way though, it shouldn't influence the decision for IR-return at all.   Lock needs the reps at NFL-speed / complexity; the way to dip into the shallow end is to get as much scrimmage / practice time as possible.  It's not to prevent any of that exposure until year 2.

Maybe Im scarred because of Paxton. I feel like we drafted a QB in the 1st round and I dont even remember him even playing. I felt like he was constantly on the sideline getting the 'Rodgers/Favre' treatment, got thrust into a few games and then never got put back out there again in favor or Trevor freaking Simeon....

I completely understand the balance between waiting till hes ready and needing actual game speed reps, so Im being a little more understanding. However, after watching the Browns QBs forever, I have morphed into a firm believer in throwing him into the water with a good enough cast around him and hes either going to sink or swim. He is who he is and I dont think walking around on the sidelines for 16+ games is going to change that as long as (like you said) he is getting practice reps.

The Broncos need to believe in their pick. Announce whoever the next young QB is as the starter, put faith in him, build the talent around them and go. It seems like there is buyers remorse with every QB Elway has selected like they never actually want to start the guy.  

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5 minutes ago, AkronsWitness said:

Maybe Im scarred because of Paxton. I feel like we drafted a QB in the 1st round and I dont even remember him even playing. I felt like he was constantly on the sideline getting the 'Rodgers/Favre' treatment, got thrust into a few games and then never got put back out there again in favor or Trevor freaking Simeon....

Paxton Lynch never grew up on draft day my buddies pointed out him having the draft party at a bowling alley. At the time I thought nothing of it or didn't let the concern show.Then the reports that came out that he can't put the video game controller down.

Sc*** that guy Paxton Lynch Failed because of Paxton Lynch no one else is to blame.

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46 minutes ago, AkronsWitness said:

Maybe Im scarred because of Paxton. I feel like we drafted a QB in the 1st round and I dont even remember him even playing. I felt like he was constantly on the sideline getting the 'Rodgers/Favre' treatment, got thrust into a few games and then never got put back out there again in favor or Trevor freaking Simeon....

I completely understand the balance between waiting till hes ready and needing actual game speed reps, so Im being a little more understanding. However, after watching the Browns QBs forever, I have morphed into a firm believer in throwing him into the water with a good enough cast around him and hes either going to sink or swim. He is who he is and I dont think walking around on the sidelines for 16+ games is going to change that as long as (like you said) he is getting practice reps.

The Broncos need to believe in their pick. Announce whoever the next young QB is as the starter, put faith in him, build the talent around them and go. It seems like there is buyers remorse with every QB Elway has selected like they never actually want to start the guy.  

The only legit argument is that the OL is so bad it could get him killed.  But then a December audition should still be considered IMO.   Like you said, at some point, they don't learn more by being on the sidelines.   And frankly, Lock's skills are supposed to make a Scangarelli O work better, so we can design safe, simple plays with quick throws and minimize the risk.   The issue is there's never going to be zero risk.  And frankly, I don't think that it's going to go from 50 percent down to 20 percent risk by waiting a year.  I think it's more likely 30 to 20-25....but the tradeoff is you delay the exposure, and the evaluation on whether he's worth passing on a Rd1 pick.

Now, I'm actually conflicted this year - because I don't think Elway's next choice is any better (Justin Herbert is a guy Elway's been linked to).  And I certainly don't want to pay a top 10 pick for him, especially when there's an elite T class ready to go there (and ppl know how much I value the franchise QB over the non-QB position if he's there).   I just hate the process if we sit Lock the entire year.    The process stinks at QB development.  It's outdated, 1990's thinking and it doesn't work in today's NFL.   It might work out with the right result (pass on QB this year, as we're likely going #3 QB overall), but blind luck doesn't justify bad processes.   Get the process right, and the good results eventually follow more often than not.  Bad processes can still yield good results (blind squirrel finding a nut principle), but not at a sustainable rate.   

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11 minutes ago, Broncofan said:

The only legit argument is that the OL is so bad it could get him killed.  But then a December audition should still be considered IMO.   Like you said, at some point, they don't learn more by being on the sidelines.   And frankly, Lock's skills are supposed to make a Scangarelli O work better, so we can design safe, simple plays with quick throws and minimize the risk.   The issue is there's never going to be zero risk.  And frankly, I don't think that it's going to go from 50 percent down to 20 percent risk by waiting a year.  I think it's more likely 30 to 20-25....but the tradeoff is you delay the exposure, and the evaluation on whether he's worth passing on a Rd1 pick.

Now, I'm actually conflicted this year - because I don't think Elway's next choice is any better (Justin Herbert is a guy Elway's been linked to).  And I certainly don't want to pay a top 10 pick for him, especially when there's an elite T class ready to go there (and ppl know how much I value the franchise QB over the non-QB position if he's there).   I just hate the process if we sit Lock the entire year.    The process stinks at QB development.  It's outdated, 1990's thinking and it doesn't work in today's NFL.   It might work out with the right result (pass on QB this year, as we're likely going #3 QB overall).  

Yep I agree with that. It just feels like we never see these guys until something crazy happens. They are drafted and basically just stuck on the shelf until they are thrust into a position. There hasnt been a single time yet where they drafted a QB in round 1-2 and built the offense around him and started him. They always come in when veteran QB goes down or sucks and its up to them to figure it out.

Side note, with the strong OT class in the top 10 next year, you can basically pencil in Garrett Boles replacement. 

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13 hours ago, thebestever6 said:

When this changes by next week am I going to get an apology for being called a homer? Will always be objective and not reactionary. If everything was based off of history history wouldn't be re written. 

All I said was wait 5 days than criticize because this offseason/year has felt different.  And I get accused of being a homer? SMH if Tuesday passes and no deals are done and Drew Lock isn't off IR I'll say I'll eat crow.

What @germ-x said.  Selling guys with expiring contracts (and are leaving) at the trade deadline on a team that doesn’t have a prayer of contention doesn’t negate all the win now moves Elway makes.  It only means he’s not brain dead.  
 

Trading Von would signal he’s finally thinking future first.   I’m not holding my breath on that going down now given Elway’s history.   The offseason would be a massive win in his mindset changing for the better but even then I’m not hopeful. 

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