Hockey5djh Posted November 25, 2019 Share Posted November 25, 2019 1 hour ago, nlesthought said: So you think Groh is responsible or he's just the scapegoat? I thought Dougie has gotten his excuse (injuries)... Shakeup in staff is another reason the offense has changed dramatically. Probably more of a scapegoat in this instance but it's not like he's blameless. The offense has taken a step back, something needs to be changed. Doug will get a little longer of a leash from the Super Bowl, Groh won't get that same courtesy. Its not like the Wide Receivers were exceeding expectations while he was the WR coach either so there's enough there to make the change. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiltman Posted November 25, 2019 Share Posted November 25, 2019 2 hours ago, nlesthought said: So you think Groh is responsible or he's just the scapegoat? I thought Dougie has gotten his excuse (injuries)... Shakeup in staff is another reason the offense has changed dramatically. I think personally it extends to two things 1) We know how collaborative the Offensive staff was in 2017. They all did their part of the gameplan and reported back to Doug, who would finalize it. Now that it clearly is breaking down, you have to look towards OC and QB coach (and other position coaches) to see what changed. Groh was the biggest change as was Press Taylor. Seeing as Doug is untouchable until we lose for a couple years, firing Groh and getting a new mind in to challenge the room is the quickest fix. 2) When pressed Groh hasn’t done himself any favors. Gets criticized by the media for his press conferences. He’s gotten better though. But he’s kind of in this Frank Reich shadow I don’t think he can get out of. if we could I’d be fine with him back at WR coach, cause clearly Welch isn’t doing much to move the needle there. But that doesn’t really happen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nlesthought Posted November 25, 2019 Share Posted November 25, 2019 1 hour ago, Hockey5djh said: Probably more of a scapegoat in this instance but it's not like he's blameless. The offense has taken a step back, something needs to be changed. Doug will get a little longer of a leash from the Super Bowl, Groh won't get that same courtesy. Its not like the Wide Receivers were exceeding expectations while he was the WR coach either so there's enough there to make the change. Playing DA, again FAs and mostly later draft picks at the WR position (not counting JJAW). We also don't know who or what the scouting department is told to do. For all we know the scouting director and his staff are getting pigeonholed/handcuffed by the FO. Everyone sees the tendencies in which the birds draft. I think Howie and the scouting department need to revamp how they approach personnel. Too many cookie cutter low ceiling individuals if Doug/Schwartz left after the year we'd be trying to revamp half the roster because they might not match what the incoming coach is looking for. How much say does the coaching staff really get on rookies? Or because there are so many prospects every year they are giving a select number to look at and give feedback? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nlesthought Posted November 25, 2019 Share Posted November 25, 2019 7 minutes ago, Kiltman said: I think personally it extends to two things 1) We know how collaborative the Offensive staff was in 2017. They all did their part of the gameplan and reported back to Doug, who would finalize it. Now that it clearly is breaking down, you have to look towards OC and QB coach (and other position coaches) to see what changed. Groh was the biggest change as was Press Taylor. Seeing as Doug is untouchable until we lose for a couple years, firing Groh and getting a new mind in to challenge the room is the quickest fix. 2) When pressed Groh hasn’t done himself any favors. Gets criticized by the media for his press conferences. He’s gotten better though. But he’s kind of in this Frank Reich shadow I don’t think he can get out of. if we could I’d be fine with him back at WR coach, cause clearly Welch isn’t doing much to move the needle there. But that doesn’t really happen. I get what you're saying about the collaborative effort, but its finalized by Doug. He has to shoulder some blame. No body is calling for McVay's head despite his offensive under achieving. I'm not asking for Doug to be replaced, I just don't see or hear reports of them getting rid of assistants. If Groh is a little froggy with the media, it doesn't bother me. His experience is with big bodied WRs in the likes of Kenny Britt/ Chicago Alshon Jeffrey both places he had talented WRs on the other side speed Tavon Austin or Brandon Marshall. Right now the passing game is lacking (healthy) talent. You have a perfect storm when your QB is going through a rough patch in terms of decision making and consistency. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiltman Posted November 25, 2019 Share Posted November 25, 2019 48 minutes ago, nlesthought said: I get what you're saying about the collaborative effort, but its finalized by Doug. He has to shoulder some blame. No body is calling for McVay's head despite his offensive under achieving. I'm not asking for Doug to be replaced, I just don't see or hear reports of them getting rid of assistants. If Groh is a little froggy with the media, it doesn't bother me. His experience is with big bodied WRs in the likes of Kenny Britt/ Chicago Alshon Jeffrey both places he had talented WRs on the other side speed Tavon Austin or Brandon Marshall. Right now the passing game is lacking (healthy) talent. You have a perfect storm when your QB is going through a rough patch in terms of decision making and consistency. Oh yeah sorry, Doug carries a lot of the blame. It’s just no point in calling for his firing. It wouldn’t happen for another couple of bad or floundering years. Groh being gone and experienced OC being brought in is the quickest fix to change something. Honestly it’s gross misconduct how that offense looked yesterday....like they just let Seattle just tee off of Carson all day. Thank god Clowney didn’t play, he would’ve destroyed him. If they don’t sit down and make a gameplan that moves Carson out of the pocket, they should all get canned. It’s just too obvious 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandyMossIsBoss Posted November 25, 2019 Share Posted November 25, 2019 Nobody is seriously calling for Doug's head because he won a SB w/ a backup QB 2 seasons ago, was in the divisional round last season... It's just not a realistic option, and for good reason. You don't fire SB winning coaches, no matter how little you think they contributed to it, after 1, 2 or even 3 disappointing years. They get a leash, so no use even talking about it. I think we all know Doug is as much to blame as anyone, even if Groh is the real problem, who had a hand in hiring him? Groh doesn't get such a leash, so it makes sense why we are all calling for his head. Doug and Carson are untouchable, for various reasons, so we discuss things that can be replaced (like OC, WRs, etc.) 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hockey5djh Posted November 25, 2019 Share Posted November 25, 2019 13 minutes ago, nlesthought said: Playing DA, again FAs and mostly later draft picks at the WR position (not counting JJAW). If we're playing DA....lets dive down the rabbit hole. Mike Groh NFL WRs: 2013 - Chicago - 80 Earl Bennett 17 Alshon Jeffery 15 Brandon Marshall 14 Eric Weems 82 Chris Williams 10 Marquess Wilson 2014 - Chicago - 11 Josh Bellamy 17 Alshon Jeffery 80 Marc Mariani RS 15 Brandon Marshall (IR) 19 Josh Morgan 10 Marquess Wilson 2015 - Chicago - 11 Joshua Bellamy 80 Marc Mariani PR 81 Cameron Meredith 19 Eddie Royal 14 Deonte Thompson KR 17 Alshon Jeffery WR (IR) 13 Kevin White WR (IR) 10 Marquess Wilson WR (IR) 2016 - Rams - 11 Tavon Austin 10 Pharoh Cooper 19 Paul McRoberts 83 Brian Quick 13 Mike Thomas R 12 Stedman Bailey WR (NF-Inj.) 15 Bradley Marquez WR (IR) 3 Marquez North WR (IR) 86 Nelson Spruce WR (IR) 2017 - Eagles - 13 Nelson Agholor 18 Shelton Gibson 10 Mack Hollins 17 Alshon Jeffery 14 Marcus Johnson 82 Torrey Smith 2018 - Eagles - 13 Nelson Agholor 18 Shelton Gibson 17 Alshon Jeffery 80 Jordan Matthews 19 Golden Tate 14 Mike Wallace Alshon's best season (and only pro-bowl season) was the year before Groh got to Chicago. Marshall followed up his All Pro year from 2012 with another pro-bowl season but took a step back in 2014 until he was traded to the Jets and bounced back. Tavon Austin was a first rounder never more than a glorified return guy in Groh's one season. He was also given Quick (2nd round), Bailey (3rd round), and Cooper (4th round) who weren't anything special. 2017 he was reunited with Alshon and given Agholor (1st), Hollins (4th), Gibson (5th), and Smith. Alshon put up ~800 yards and 9 TDs, Agholor was benched partway through the season to "clear his head", Smith put up the lowest yards per reception in his career (minus the injury riddled 2018) and none of the of the draft picks did anything in their rookie season. 2018 wasn't much better for WRs and this includes the Tate addition at the trade deadline where Groh said it was "challenging to integrate him". Prior to us adding him he was averaging over 6 catches per game for almost 74 yards, minus the 4 game suspension with the Giants he's averaging 5 for 65 for his new team. I know taking numbers out of context isn't the right way to tell a story but where in Groh's career has a player exceeded what was expected of them? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nlesthought Posted November 25, 2019 Share Posted November 25, 2019 (edited) 52 minutes ago, Hockey5djh said: If we're playing DA....lets dive down the rabbit hole. Mike Groh NFL WRs: 2013 - Chicago - 80 Earl Bennett 17 Alshon Jeffery 15 Brandon Marshall 14 Eric Weems 82 Chris Williams 10 Marquess Wilson 2014 - Chicago - 11 Josh Bellamy 17 Alshon Jeffery 80 Marc Mariani RS 15 Brandon Marshall (IR) 19 Josh Morgan 10 Marquess Wilson 2015 - Chicago - 11 Joshua Bellamy 80 Marc Mariani PR 81 Cameron Meredith 19 Eddie Royal 14 Deonte Thompson KR 17 Alshon Jeffery WR (IR) 13 Kevin White WR (IR) 10 Marquess Wilson WR (IR) 2016 - Rams - 11 Tavon Austin 10 Pharoh Cooper 19 Paul McRoberts 83 Brian Quick 13 Mike Thomas R 12 Stedman Bailey WR (NF-Inj.) 15 Bradley Marquez WR (IR) 3 Marquez North WR (IR) 86 Nelson Spruce WR (IR) 2017 - Eagles - 13 Nelson Agholor 18 Shelton Gibson 10 Mack Hollins 17 Alshon Jeffery 14 Marcus Johnson 82 Torrey Smith 2018 - Eagles - 13 Nelson Agholor 18 Shelton Gibson 17 Alshon Jeffery 80 Jordan Matthews 19 Golden Tate 14 Mike Wallace Alshon's best season (and only pro-bowl season) was the year before Groh got to Chicago. Marshall followed up his All Pro year from 2012 with another pro-bowl season but took a step back in 2014 until he was traded to the Jets and bounced back. Tavon Austin was a first rounder never more than a glorified return guy in Groh's one season. He was also given Quick (2nd round), Bailey (3rd round), and Cooper (4th round) who weren't anything special. 2017 he was reunited with Alshon and given Agholor (1st), Hollins (4th), Gibson (5th), and Smith. Alshon put up ~800 yards and 9 TDs, Agholor was benched partway through the season to "clear his head", Smith put up the lowest yards per reception in his career (minus the injury riddled 2018) and none of the of the draft picks did anything in their rookie season. 2018 wasn't much better for WRs and this includes the Tate addition at the trade deadline where Groh said it was "challenging to integrate him". Prior to us adding him he was averaging over 6 catches per game for almost 74 yards, minus the 4 game suspension with the Giants he's averaging 5 for 65 for his new team. I know taking numbers out of context isn't the right way to tell a story but where in Groh's career has a player exceeded what was expected of them? in 2016 he had Kenny Britt as well... In no way am I saying Groh should be spared I'm just trying to find where the hate is coming from. I don't know how much influence Groh has over the roster as a WR coach. If you go back to '15 which is 4 years ago, I can only see a couple guys on each roster that is still playing in the league, I think that has more to say about scouting talent as much as developing talent. Edited November 25, 2019 by nlesthought Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hockey5djh Posted November 25, 2019 Share Posted November 25, 2019 19 minutes ago, nlesthought said: in 2016 he had Kenny Britt as well... In no way am I saying Groh should be spared I'm just trying to find where the hate is coming from. I don't know how much influence Groh has over the roster as a WR coach. If you go back to '15 which is 4 years ago, I can only see a couple guys on each roster that is still playing in the league, I think that has more to say about scouting talent as much as developing talent. Weird that they didn't have Britt on Wiki. My point wasn't his influence on the roster, but rather his influence on the players he had. He was given some established talents who had better seasons before, and after he left and nowhere he has been has he developed a draft pick to become anything even serviceable in the NFL. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nlesthought Posted November 26, 2019 Share Posted November 26, 2019 4 hours ago, Hockey5djh said: Weird that they didn't have Britt on Wiki. My point wasn't his influence on the roster, but rather his influence on the players he had. He was given some established talents who had better seasons before, and after he left and nowhere he has been has he developed a draft pick to become anything even serviceable in the NFL. I agree he hasn’t but that’s just as much coaching as it is development. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eagles $5$ Posted November 27, 2019 Share Posted November 27, 2019 (edited) Watching the Rams last night and seeing Jalen Ramsey giving up on plays and quitting on them already, I'm glad Howie didn't give up TWO 1st Round pick and 4th for that. Making that trade and seeing how our season is going, we don't need Ramsey. He wouldn't have put us over top, just like the Rams. At least our GM didn't screw us like that. Edited November 27, 2019 by Eagles $5$ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandyMossIsBoss Posted November 27, 2019 Share Posted November 27, 2019 50 minutes ago, Eagles $5$ said: Watching the Rams last night and seeing Jalen Ramsey giving up on plays and quitting on them already, I'm glad Howie didn't give up TWO 1st Round pick and 4th for that. Making that trade and seeing how our season is going, we don't need Ramsey. He wouldn't have put us over top, just like the Rams. At least our GM didn't screw us like that. Agree, huge props to Howie there lol because I was all for it. CB is such a damned if you do, damned if you don't position. Spend big to reel one via FA or trade? They'll disappoint. Draft one high? They'll disappoint... Meanwhile: how did you not sign Gilmore!? How did you not draft Minkah!? I'm beginning to wonder in my lifetime if I will ever see all-pro play from the CB position in Philly... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nabbs4u Posted November 27, 2019 Share Posted November 27, 2019 Ahhh the Good Ole' days of when our secondary was the strength of the Eagles Defense. Dawkins, Allen, Vincent, Taylor, Sheppard, Brown, Samuel. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EaglesPeteC Posted November 27, 2019 Share Posted November 27, 2019 Knock on wood, the secondary hasn’t been the problem for a few weeks. I feel like this team just alternates position groups to be decimated by injuries Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baconrad11 Posted November 28, 2019 Share Posted November 28, 2019 We just can't get our ish together all at once. Our offense was playing well the first part of the season, while the defense was water trash. Now these last few weeks, it's reversed. Our defense has been really good lately. Imagine if we had Malik Jackson healthy...our DL would be really good. It's just a shame that were trotting out a bunch of turds at WR and Howard has been hurt the last two games (not that I'd have trusted Doug to stick to the run even in tight games). Plus the injury to Lane and the whole Brookes anxiety situation. We were foolish to think we could rely on a 32 year old DJax to be an integral part of the offense....And Alshon has been underwhelming af. Luckily WR position isn't that tough to revamp, so assuming Howie actually tries to, we should be able to improve that position this offseason. Our defense looks like it should be good enough for some time, Carson is still really good despite the last few games, our TEs are studs, we have good pieces on the OL and two talented RBs that compliment each other well. Weird to think that not having WRs could be that detrimental but it has been 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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