Bill O'Brien Hot Seat Thread

[ET80]

1 hour ago, amazingandre said:

I was thinking about this for a bit now. If you want to hire a football mind to help run the team but not as HC or GM, I would prefer Cowher. I don't want him as HC or GM, but he would serve us extremely well in the same role Coughlin is for Jacksonville now.

I'd be game for that too. Cowher, Mike Shanahan, Mike Holmgren, Vermeil - my stance is that the role needs to be created to begin with, and staffed by somebody with credentials of sustained success.

[Apollo Stallion]

On 9/12/2017 at 5:54 PM, EliteTexan80 said:

I'd be game for that too. Cowher, Mike Shanahan, Mike Holmgren, Vermeil - my stance is that the role needs to be created to begin with, and staffed by somebody with credentials of sustained success.

Sorry, I'm open to the approach in general, but definitely not the relics you mentioned.  Are we basing this on one good week from Tom Coughlin's Jags? 

• **** Vermeil is 80 years old and a dozen years removed from the sport. 
• Holmgren was god awful as a HC/GM in Seattle and was last seen making idiotic moves as Team President of the Browns such as hiring Eric Mangini to coach a football team. 
• Shanahan committed franchise malpractice with #2 overall pick & Rookie of the Year RG3's career first by continuing to run him out there in a lost cause with what was likely a torn ACL, then playing him less than 7 months removed from ACL surgery, then publicly undermining his QB because he didn't like that the owner valued him more than the coach. Hasn't won squat without John Elway.
• Bill Cowher was purely a sideline attitude football coach with practically zero input in personnel matters.  Neophyte Mike Tomlin won a Super Bowl in two years there while Cowher squandered some of the best rosters anywhere and all the built in advantages of ownership to get 1 ring in 15 year.  If you need "a name" he fits, but the skillset doesn't.
• I'll go ahead and address Gruden as well.  Great COACHING job getting Dungy's team over the hump and winning a Super Bowl, but that was 15 years ago now.  He followed up his first year by 6 more years of diminishing returns, including horrific cap management and empty draft classes.  His handpicked partner in Tampa was Bruce Allen who is THE WORST EXECUTIVE in the sport today. Gruden's EGO makes him a poor fit for a front office role as barking opinions loudly does not make you smart as he may be one of the worst talent evaluators ever -  this is a guy who advocating taking Johnny Manziel #1 overall.
• You didn't include him, but Bill Parcells who was last seen being brought in by the Browns to get "a football man" involved.  There is a reason he fell out of favor with Jets (HC/GM), Cowboys (HC+), and Dolphins (VP).  Basically fits the Rex Ryan mold of initial success based upon instilling an old school football attitude, usually by cutting stars and bringing in his go to "effort" guys.  His abrasive act wears thin on management and players alike and the lack of talent on the roster shows up.  
• Now the exception so far seems to be John Elway, but diminishing returns are creeping in there as well and signing Peyton Manning tends to make someone look smart real fast.   

I'll have to rack my brain for someone that fits the bill, but personally I value football intelligence & management skill over ego & personality.  I also want someone who understands the CURRENT game which needs to be built around the inherent advantage the passing game has over defenses who can't hit and building a defense that can mitigate that advantage.

[ET80]

36 minutes ago, Apollo Stallion said:

I'll have to rack my brain for someone that fits the bill, but personally I value football intelligence & management skill over ego & personality.  I also want someone who understands the CURRENT game which needs to be built around the inherent advantage the passing game has over defenses who can't hit and building a defense that can mitigate that advantage.

I'm just throwing out names, seeing what sticks. Vermeil is the only name I could come up with who has success and left everywhere in great graces - I mean, he had his old Eagles players from the 70s crying tears of joy when he won his SB in St. Louis. The football IQ is there - he (along with Mike Martz, who cratered out pretty hard on his own) more or less set the template of this modern day passing NFL with the GSOT. 

(Also, being successful in St. Louis during the Georgia Frontierre era is worthy of a statue). You're right, ultimately - he's a bit too old for such a gig. He's doing well running his wineries, doubt you'd be able to pull him away from a labor of love such as that. 

Tony Dungy comes to mind as well. Herman Edwards - not stoked on him in a role like this, but another name thrown against the wall. 

Part of this is based on what Coughlin's unit did in one week, but it's more than that. You didn't have to really look hard to see that this Jags team looks really different - it wasn't just execution, but the overall temperament and attitude of that team - this isn't the Jags teams we're used to.

I'm expecting them to continue this display against a much more physical OL next week vs Tennessee. We're going to have to take this team seriously now, and that isn't because of Doug Marrone.

[Apollo Stallion]

So if we want a break from the Patriots lineage, to me the other option is to go with the Packers line from which the Seahawks, Chiefs, and Raiders are built as well. If you want a "connected" name look to Eliot Wolf, son of Hall of Fame GM Ron Wolf.  Frankly, I cringe at the ridiculous nepotism in the NFL and these "grew up in the business" daddy-boy types like lil Shanny, but lil Wolfie has been working along-side best in the biz Ted Thompson for 13 years now and the Packers remain the model of team building thru smart scouting and drafting vs. team killing short cuts like we tried to make with Brock Osweiler.  Now Wolf is a Packer-lifer and the clear heir to Ted Thompson's thrown, but that presents other opportunities for those who know they have no path to the throne.

1) Ted Thompson himself - he's 64 and you kinda wonder if at some point he's nudged out for lil Wolfie.  He's a born Texan and went to SMU, so maybe that has some pull for a semi-retirement Football Czar role.

2)  Brian Gutekunst - Packers Dir of Pro Personnel - his focus has been college scouting which is the straw that stirs the Packers success.  If Wolf is living off his name and connections, there is usually a smart guy behind the scenes making the real decisions.  I hear he's the guy.

3) John Dorsey - former Chiefs GM (Packers Personnel) - basically the architect of their current success (43-21 w/3 playoffs) before being pushed out this year in an odd contract squabble / power struggle.  Basically came down to $ and not wanting to let Andy Reid do what he did in Philly which was let his on field success make him think he was a personnel guy. 

 

 

[Apollo Stallion]

This is NOT a shocker but the job of NFL GM is VERY political and rarely autonomous from the NFL office itself.  There is a panel of 5 old-timers including Charlie Casserly, Bill Polian, Ron Wolf, Ernie Accorsi, John Madden that essentially "nominate" GM candidates as part of their "executive search committee" for the NFL which has served as the de facto hiring pool for GMs for years.    Mike Maccagnan was basically hired as GM for the Jets by the NFL, not by the Jets because he was deemed next on the list by Casserly.  Ditto Chris Ballard in Indy who Polian wouldn't even let interview with other franchises for years because he had him stashed away for Irsay.  While there are rougue owners like Cleveland that go outside the system, Bob McNair has been as inside the system as it comes from day 1 when he basically told he had to hire Casserly in the first place (and why I remain convinced he colluded with the league to get Reggie Bush in New Orleans before stepping down to work in the NFL office again until Katrina killed their plan to move the Saints to LA).  McNair is right there alongside the Rooney's, Mara's, Hunt's, and Kraft's on the powerful 5 person Chairman's Committee - aka the NFL illuminati.

Anyway, point is I believe that one of the secrets to Rick Smith's longevity is that league ownership really wants/needs people that fit his profile at the executive level and I think that's ok to say since this is a league that proudly parades it's tokenism with the Rooney Rule. That committee I referenced - as a point of emphasis Robert Gulliver was hired as "Chief Diversity Officer" Troy Vincent was put in charge and Tony Dungy and Dennis Green added a few years back. Placing Reggie McKenzie in Oakland was their initial prize hire which has worked out splendidly.   Honestly, I even think Rick Smith will make a great league executive and may even be commissioner one day as he's got sucking up to ownership down pat, but that doesn't mean he needs to be running our team any more. But essentially the only two paths to being a GM in this league is being connected with the Casserly/Polian group or the Vincent/Dungy group. It's NOT an autonomous process.

FWIW - Given that cynical line of thinking Alonzo Highsmith is a Packer personnel guy with deep Houston roots (both he and his dad were Oilers) who may be deemed worthy of our GM gig if Rick Smith is promoted to some NFL office gig, which I'm convinced is the only way we get rid of him.  Personally I don't think the resume is there yet, but neither was Rick Smith's.  Take it for what you will - it's 1 business with 32 franchise holders and if you don't believe me ask fans in St Louis, San Diego, and Oakland whether their opinion mattered one ounce vs. the collective raise having 2 franchises in LA and 1 in Vegas gave the other owners.        

[UKTexans]

I missed you @Apollo Stallion

I almost prefer us to suck so I can read these posts. 

[ET80]

5 hours ago, Apollo Stallion said:

and why I remain convinced he colluded with the league to get Reggie Bush in New Orleans before stepping down to work in the NFL office again until Katrina killed their plan to move the Saints to LA

Sorry to miss the forest because of the trees on this one, but wasn't Bush drafted AFTER Katrina? The Saints were displaced the season before (when Aaron Brooks and Deuce McCallister were playing in OKC for home games).

I enjoy a good tinfoil hat theory as much as the next guy, but the timeline doesn't add up. Bush (and Drew Brees) were both Saints the following season.

[ET80]

So in these sort if discussions, I'm not a fan of looking at coordinators. I really believe there's a Peter Principle in the NFL, and odds are you're likely to find a Jim Tomsula vs a Dan Quinn.

This being said, I'd like to see Lions OC Jim Bob Cooter as someone we'd talk to. A few reasons:

1. The name. I mean, come on. Houston needs a press conference where every question is preceded by "Coach Cooter..."

2. The lulz aside, he's done a great job with QB Matthew Stafford, without the use of Calvin Johnson or a competent run game at his disposal. Stafford was almost on the fence as a good QB, widely considered to be a byproduct of Megatron. Now, he's keeping the Lions in the hunt in the NFC, pretty much on the basis of the offense Jim Bob put together to keep Stafford throwing all over the place. This isn't fluffing your resume with Tom Brady, this is legitimate management of a dynamic offense.

Again, I'm never sold on coordinator-to-HC gigs. But if we did go that route, Jim Bob comes to mind. For the lulz, yeah. But there's practical application along with it.

[UKTexans]

1 minute ago, EliteTexan80 said:

Stafford was almost on the fence as a good QB, widely considered to be a byproduct of Megatron.

I think you'll find most Lions fans would point to CJ being something of a negative for Stafford. When CJ was in the lineup the assumption was Stafford would just hoist up jump balls. 

I even think his stats may be better without him in the lineup historically. 

[ET80]

1 minute ago, texans_uk said:

I think you'll find most Lions fans would point to CJ being something of a negative for Stafford. When CJ was in the lineup the assumption was Stafford would just hoist up jump balls. 

I even think his stats may be better without him in the lineup historically. 

I don't necessarily disagree - you saw the same with Brett Favre when Sterling Sharpe was playing - but it was still a significant asset to have. 

And it's not like the Lions really boast a dominant WR unit after the fact. Golden Tate is criminally underrated, Marvin Jones is a solid #2, Eric Ebron is never healthy or effective,...but that's about it.

[UKTexans]

It was. But I think getting him to target high percentage throws rather than falling back on Megatron is just as big a factor, which you can't really say is a product of Jim Bob. 

We don't know if he would have altered his offense if Megatron had stuck it out. 

Are there no exciting College Coordinators kicking around? 

[Pastor Dillon]

I really wish we had kept Brock on the roster. He could have been the back up and we could still have our 2nd round pick next season. Tanking is going to hurt when its helping the Browns and not us. 

[ET80]

34 minutes ago, Pastor Dillon said:

I really wish we had kept Brock on the roster. He could have been the back up and we could still have our 2nd round pick next season. Tanking is going to hurt when its helping the Browns and not us. 

It's already a dumpster fire here, do we need the drama that Brock brought to the table?

Brock being jettisoned is what freed up the cap room to sign Hopkins long term. I'd take that over a high 2nd any day.

[jch1911]

7 hours ago, EliteTexan80 said:

So in these sort if discussions, I'm not a fan of looking at coordinators. I really believe there's a Peter Principle in the NFL, and odds are you're likely to find a Jim Tomsula vs a Dan Quinn.

This being said, I'd like to see Lions OC Jim Bob Cooter as someone we'd talk to. A few reasons:

1. The name. I mean, come on. Houston needs a press conference where every question is preceded by "Coach Cooter..."

2. The lulz aside, he's done a great job with QB Matthew Stafford, without the use of Calvin Johnson or a competent run game at his disposal. Stafford was almost on the fence as a good QB, widely considered to be a byproduct of Megatron. Now, he's keeping the Lions in the hunt in the NFC, pretty much on the basis of the offense Jim Bob put together to keep Stafford throwing all over the place. This isn't fluffing your resume with Tom Brady, this is legitimate management of a dynamic offense.

Again, I'm never sold on coordinator-to-HC gigs. But if we did go that route, Jim Bob comes to mind. For the lulz, yeah. But there's practical application along with it.

You just watched the most recent episode of Ballers and you saw Cooter's name being thrown around... just admit it ET... from one Kempner Kougar to another... lmao

I'm still just hoping we can turn this season around... but wheeewww that was a stinker

[ET80]

3 minutes ago, jch1911 said:

You just watched the most recent episode of Ballers and you saw Cooter's name being thrown around... just admit it ET... from one Kempner Kougar to another... lmao

I'm still just hoping we can turn this season around... but wheeewww that was a stinker

I actually don't watch Ballers. Watched the first two seasons, then got rid of HBO (only renew it for Game of Thrones).

They're good on the name dropping. I remember they were talking about the draft in season two, and The Rock said "Well, Myles Jack? He's top 5 for sure..."

Pretty sure that was pre ACL injury.