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dll2000

2019 Offseason (eating crow)

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59 minutes ago, WindyCity said:

I am also willing to give Nagy a chance with a real QB.

The Watson and Mahomes thing is relevant because it adds to the enormity of Pace's misevaluation. It wasn't a bad QB year, it was an exceptional QB year and Pace managed to pick the bust. It is like going to the grocery store and there are 3 apples and you pick the one rotten one. He had a 66% chance to get it right and he failed.

Trubisky busting is not a toe stub. It is a crippling move. We should start treating it as such.

 

The Bears will just go get another QB. They have been doing that for my entire life.

Could have been worse.  You could have drafted Kizer.  Or traded a quality secondary player for him.

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3 minutes ago, WindyCity said:

Again, your are judged by results not process.

I respected him going all in. He missed and that has crippled the franchise.

 

The result is what matters, because that is what we need to dig out of now. That is why we are losing games.

Maybe this is neither here nor there, and results really are all that matters in a sense.  

But man, I can tell you I coached a number of teams that were 12-0 or 11-1, but I also had a 7-3 year and even a 2-8 year.  I coached as hard as I could for all the teams.  

It was always me and my brain power didn't go up or down that much, but I have been called a genius by some and a complete moron by others depending on the year.

 

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3 minutes ago, RunningVaccs said:

I still dig Pace's approach, and he did deliver us some exciting times and a great 2018.  It's fair to accept that drafting anyone has a lot of risk and the effects are magnified twice when it's both a high pick and a QB

The only reason he should be fired is so the next GM can pick their QB, and I don't think we're there yet

The Bears fan peak, the one and done good season with 0 playoff wins.

This was suppose to be a period of sustained success. It is not a period of sustained success because Pace massively missed on the QB. Christ he might have missed on the coach.

That is why he deserves to be fired.

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1 minute ago, dll2000 said:

Maybe this is neither here nor there, and results really are all that matters in a sense.  

But man, I can tell you I coached a number of teams that were 12-0 or 11-1, but I also had a 7-3 year and even a 2-8 year.  I coached as hard as I could for all the teams.  

It was always me and my brain power didn't go up or down that much, but I have been called a genius by some and a complete moron by others depending on the year.

 

I do not actually think Pace is an idiot.

I think that he cannot evaluate QB talent at all. 

 

If you cannot evaluate QB talent you are useless to me because that is what is killing this team. If I am having a heart attack [QB position] please do not take me to an orthopedic surgeon [Pace].

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Just now, WindyCity said:

The Bears fan peak, the one and done good season with 0 playoff wins.

This was suppose to be a period of sustained success. It is not a period of sustained success because Pace massively missed on the QB. Christ he might have missed on the coach.

That is why he deserves to be fired.

I really do see your point, but to make my own: If we fired Pace today, or in January, what are the chances that the team is getting better by doing it?  GM hires are tough too, and are we creating an impression outside the team that Chicago is volatile and trigger happy? 

 

Let's say both Nagy and Jason Garrett get fired this offseason, and you're a coaching candidate desired by both teams, and lets just say everything else is equal.  Would you pick the team that stuck with it's coach for a hilariously long time, or the one that fired it's coach ridiculously quickly?

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1 minute ago, WindyCity said:

I do not actually think Pace is an idiot.

I think that he cannot evaluate QB talent at all. 

 

If you cannot evaluate QB talent you are useless to me because that is what is killing this team. If I am having a heart attack [QB position] please do not take me to an orthopedic surgeon [Pace].

To carry your analogy forward, are you any happier if your ambulance driver kills you by driving to Milwaukee because he thinks there's a great cardiac unit there?

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1 minute ago, RunningVaccs said:

To carry your analogy forward, are you any happier if your ambulance driver kills you by driving to Milwaukee because he thinks there's a great cardiac unit there?

At least they are trying to get the right doctor.

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31 minutes ago, dll2000 said:

That doesn't follow.  It turned out that two of the guys were good and one was bad.  But given information available at time they were all three relatively high potential busts as prospects.   Any of one of them could have made you an "idiot" or a genius.  

-MT didn't have any experience

-Watson played just like 100 mobile college guys before him who busted out.

-Mahomes was from Leach tree that had a 100% bust rate to that date.   

Everyone is a potential bust, but some more so than others.   

Off top of my head only Elway, P. Manning and A. Luck were seen as near sure fire NFL hits coming out.  Maybe Drew Bledsoe too.

 

 

I take a little, and just a little offense to Watson.  All he did was lead his team to two National Championship games and threw for over 400 yards in each of them, splitting the games with Alabama.  
Watson had the arm, the legs and the brain to get it done.  When you produce like he did, on the biggest stage in collegiate football against a team that has the #1 defense in the country, well, you know he's got "it".

What I liked best about Watson is that he did it at the highest level for 2 years coming out.  Not a one year flash at all.

Watson had everything over Mitch coming out and it wasn't even close.

I get that Mahomes had a little bust in him as I didn't like his size and boy was I wrong.

Your point is well taken, the guys you mentioned were sure fire guys.  And I'm trying to think of more, but they were a clear step down from those.  I thought Watson was right there with those guys.

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9 minutes ago, WindyCity said:

Based on what?

He is better than Emery and Angelo, I will give him that, but that is meaningless because those guys sucked.

QB is what matters. You can make beautiful mashed potatoes as asparagus, but if you burn my steak what is the point.

Based on totality of decisions made as GM.   

It is easy for even a good or very good GM to miss on QB.  It happens way more often than not.

Unfortunately that skews end results a great deal.   Tough to judge a someone generally good at poker on one poker hand where he lost most everything.

Again if you don't show you can evaluate QBs in any sense though that is a problem.   Pace has brought in zero good QBs to Bears.  

So I am both defending him and attacking him.  I am not sure to be honest.   

 

 

 

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Eh, I get your feelings I really do.  But my capacity for self flagellation over the Bears usually runs out by Tuesday after a loss, I have a lot of beating myself up over my own professional, personal and competitive ****ups to get to!

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1 minute ago, vegas492 said:

I take a little, and just a little offense to Watson.  All he did was lead his team to two National Championship games and threw for over 400 yards in each of them, splitting the games with Alabama.  
Watson had the arm, the legs and the brain to get it done.  When you produce like he did, on the biggest stage in collegiate football against a team that has the #1 defense in the country, well, you know he's got "it".

What I liked best about Watson is that he did it at the highest level for 2 years coming out.  Not a one year flash at all.

Watson had everything over Mitch coming out and it wasn't even close.

I get that Mahomes had a little bust in him as I didn't like his size and boy was I wrong.

Your point is well taken, the guys you mentioned were sure fire guys.  And I'm trying to think of more, but they were a clear step down from those.  I thought Watson was right there with those guys.

Yeah, but you could have compared him to a 100 other guys that played at big time programs who did similar great things playing with great players over the last 20 - 30 years.

It turns out he was legit good, but it was hard to tell based on his play style and the way they dominated most teams.  

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2 minutes ago, vegas492 said:

I take a little, and just a little offense to Watson.  All he did was lead his team to two National Championship games and threw for over 400 yards in each of them, splitting the games with Alabama.  
Watson had the arm, the legs and the brain to get it done.  When you produce like he did, on the biggest stage in collegiate football against a team that has the #1 defense in the country, well, you know he's got "it".

What I liked best about Watson is that he did it at the highest level for 2 years coming out.  Not a one year flash at all.

Watson had everything over Mitch coming out and it wasn't even close.

I get that Mahomes had a little bust in him as I didn't like his size and boy was I wrong.

Your point is well taken, the guys you mentioned were sure fire guys.  And I'm trying to think of more, but they were a clear step down from those.  I thought Watson was right there with those guys.

I wanted Watson first myself, but I think that there was a very legitmate concern over both his injury past and potential, think that might have scared Pace a bit. 

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Options.

Keep everyone.  Mitch.  Pace.  Nagy.  Pray for improvement from Mitch.

Keep Nagy.  Keep Mitch.  Dump Pace.  Not a good look at all.  New GM will ultimately want a new coach.  New coach will want "his" quarterback.

Keep Pace.  Keep Nagy.  Dump MItch.  Either bench him or cut him.  Get a new quarterback.  This seems to be the "sane" route.  Give Pace another kick at the can and get input from Nagy as to which quarterback he would like that can actually be had.

I fear the Bears team, big time, if they can find a way to get Foles on that roster.  Get him, draft offensive lineman and see what happens for a year.  Then judge Pace/Nagy.

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16 minutes ago, WindyCity said:

I do not actually think Pace is an idiot.

I think that he cannot evaluate QB talent at all. 

 

If you cannot evaluate QB talent you are useless to me because that is what is killing this team. If I am having a heart attack [QB position] please do not take me to an orthopedic surgeon [Pace].

Well Pace has a defensive background so maybe it makes sense that he's not the best guy to evaluate the QB position?  That doesn't mean that he's a bad GM or that they need to fire him because he missed on Mitch.  You are acting like any GM that is ever hired in the NFL needs to be a QB guru first and foremost. Tell me where do you find those guys?  I just gave you an example of an offensive guru in John Dorsey who drafted Mayfield and who is not living up to that pick right now. 

How do you know that the next guy the Bears hire will be any better at evaluating the QB position.  You trust McCaskey and Phillips to find and hire that guy?  Pace was hired based on recommendation from Ernie Accorsi not because those two have any clue on how to evaluate GM talent themselves.  They tried it already themselves with Phil Emery and it failed.

I think what actually needs to be done is to have the head coach have input on who they draft next.

If you are going to draft a QB early then I believe the GM and head coach need to be in unison so they have the same vision on who that guy will be.  Pace took Mitch when Fox was still here. Who knows if it would have been a different situation had he hired Nagy before making that choice.  We can only imagine.  But again I believe if you are keeping Nagy then there is no sense in firing Pace.  Let them ride this thing out together.  Bringing in a new GM for next year who will be forced to stick with Nagy for even one season is not a good option.  Might as well just can them both if that's what you plan on doing.

Edited by topwop1

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6 minutes ago, dll2000 said:

Based on totality of decisions made as GM.   

It is easy for even a good or very good GM to miss on QB.  It happens way more often than not.

Unfortunately that skews end results a great deal.   Tough to judge a someone generally good at poker on one poker hand where he lost most everything.

Again if you don't show you can evaluate QBs in any sense though that is a problem.   Pace has brought in zero good QBs to Bears.  

So I am both defending him and attacking him.  I am not sure to be honest.   

 

 

 

His ability to assess DL does not give me hope about his ability to assess QBs.

He is 0/2 with 2 total busts.

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