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Week 9 GDT: Browns @ Broncos


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On 10/30/2019 at 5:33 AM, jolly red giant said:

Why is wanting your team to win short-sighted?

Winning a game at 2-6 is not inconsequential - it demonstrates that you do not give up - that you go out every day and try to win - that you do not settle for second best. I can guarantee you that, no matter what the Miami management want, every Miami player goes out every week to try and win a game - there is no point in playing this game if you don't - and every week there are about 1,700 players out of a population of 327million that get to go out and play football in front of, not just America, but the entire world.

Now - at 2-6 I don't have a problem with evaluating players, about seeing who can coach, about trying new things, about realising where you are as a team - but you still try and win the games and let the dice fall where they may. Like I said - give up on trying to win and it is a long way back to competitiveness.

Because the "win" is not a meaningful win, it's the win that gets you from 5-11 to 6-10. You want your team to win when those wins matter. Nobody will look back with fondness on the win you've admitted you'd take over the chance to draft a Hall of Fame player, in a lost season. 

In the end, it is inconsequential and it does mean nothing. Those things you're describing are part of their job. They are paid well to try to win, not give up and play hard. 

Edited by BroncoBruin
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7 minutes ago, BroncoBruin said:

Because the "win" is not a meaningful win, it's the win that gets you from 5-11 to 6-10. You want your team to win when those wins matter. Nobody will look back with fondness on the win you've admitted you'd take over the chance to draft a Hall of Fame player, in a lost season. 

In the end, it is inconsequential and it does mean nothing. Those things you're describing are part of their job. They are paid well to try to win, not give up and play hard. 

Completely agree with this. With roster turnover the way it is in the NFL, inconsequential wins do not do much. Losing 30-40% of your roster every year means you always lose a little continuity, so the key is to have the right message from the top down.

I do think Fangio is the right coach to set that tone, but the players aren't good enough. Denver needs to take every opportunity to be in a position to stockpile high draft picks to find those impact players. Are they all going to pan out? No. But having chances to take better players before other teams can is the essence of how bad teams become good teams. That, and of course finding a QB.

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1 hour ago, AnAngryAmerican said:

I agree. John Fox and his staff didn’t get enough credit for what they did when they did it. Was Fox an elite HC? No. But he was a pretty darn good one and was exactly what we needed at the time. 

Fangio (and Scangarello, Munchak, Donatell, et. at.) is a problem with this team. I know people want to give them all a pass, and I get it to a certain extent, but they need to do a lot better.

Dude, youre like half way there with the right thought process and mentality are you messing around?

Even if Fangios impact is only John Fox Level it still doesn't make it a bad thing to set the ground work like Fox did for Kubiak. Build culture, establish smart hard working, fast and physical players then if in 2-3 years it's not looking right make a change but you'll have an amazing list of candidates at a better place organizationally. 

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1 hour ago, BroncoBruin said:

Because the "win" is not a meaningful win, it's the win that gets you from 5-11 to 6-10. You want your team to win when those wins matter. Nobody will look back with fondness on the win you've admitted you'd take over the chance to draft a Hall of Fame player, in a lost season. 

In the end, it is inconsequential and it does mean nothing. Those things you're describing are part of their job. They are paid well to try to win, not give up and play hard. 

Why not tank for five years on the trot - get the top pick for five years and the top of every subsequent round. 

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Just now, jolly red giant said:

Why not tank for five years on the trot - get the top pick for five years and the top of every subsequent round. 

Because then you provide a losing culture and players would wanna leave. Listen, you're onto something I want this team to be a tough out every week and get sick to their stomach of losing. That's what I want this year.

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The 1988 Bucs won a meaningless Week 17 game against the lowly Lions that dropped them from #3 in the draft to #6. 3-5 in that draft in order were Barry Sanders, Derrick Thomas and Deion Sanders. 

Never heard much about what a culture builder beating the Lions was. 

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13 minutes ago, thebestever6 said:

Because then you provide a losing culture and players would wanna leave. Listen, you're onto something I want this team to be a tough out every week and get sick to their stomach of losing. That's what I want this year.

Culture is overrated. Talent coupled with quality coaching leads to wins, wins lead to culture. 

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11 minutes ago, BroncoBruin said:

Culture is overrated. Talent coupled with quality coaching leads to wins, wins lead to culture. 

We ain't winning sh** until Lock develops it's chicken or the egg per say. Giants picked a pro ready QB at 6.

This organization picked 6 raw talents minus risner lol in the 2019 NFL draft that need time, and timeeeee is on our side this season. 

FWIW I like what Denver did over New York minus I would of traded Von like they did OBJ if we had an offer.

I've come around since April in April I had the we only took 6 picks approach wtf this team needs soooooo much. Now that I see the plan of developing those 6 players as part of a bigger core it makes sense 100%.

It's like terminator 3 they spent all that time trying to stop skynet and you cant stop skynet just let it happen. I'm rambling so I'm going to end this post lol.

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55 minutes ago, BroncoBruin said:

The 1988 Bucs won a meaningless Week 17 game against the lowly Lions that dropped them from #3 in the draft to #6. 3-5 in that draft in order were Barry Sanders, Derrick Thomas and Deion Sanders. 

Never heard much about what a culture builder beating the Lions was. 

Pittsburgh won 3 of their last four games and dropped from the first pick to the seventh. At 3 the Bucs could have picked Tony Mandarich. The Bucs did pick Broderick Thomas - a DE/OLB - that the Bucs decided would play ILB - a disaster that Thomas never fully recovered from. Despite this he had a pretty decent career with 144 consecutive games before tearing his ACL and retiring (and a better career than the above mentioned Tony Mandarich). 

This is all hindsight stuff - outside of Thomas - the entire Bucs draft in 1989 was a disaster - every other draft pick except Thomas was gone within a year. In fact the same thing pretty much happened the following year - then the Bucs were picking at 4 - they picked Kevin McCants - guess who went at 5 to the Chargers - Junior Seau. The other interesting thing about that 1990 draft was that the Cowboys went 1-15 but didn't have the top pick because they had forfeited it in order to pick Steve Walsh in the 1989 supplemental draft (the Broncos also forfeited their pick for Bobby Humphrey) - was Steve Walsh worth the number 1 pick in 1990?

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1 hour ago, BroncoBruin said:

The 1988 Bucs won a meaningless Week 17 game against the lowly Lions that dropped them from #3 in the draft to #6. 3-5 in that draft in order were Barry Sanders, Derrick Thomas and Deion Sanders. 

Never heard much about what a culture builder beating the Lions was. 

Isn't that proving his point? You could not possibly have a worse slide where you missed on three hall of famers. That's super rare. And still look what happened, not a single one of those teams won a super bowl. 

Or you could look at it a different way. What if Green Bay wins one more game that year and picks #5 overall? They draft Deion Sanders instead of Mandarich. 

 

*The only exception in my opinion is if it is for a great QB prospect then lose the game.

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1 hour ago, sportcourt7 said:

Isn't that proving his point? You could not possibly have a worse slide where you missed on three hall of famers. That's super rare. And still look what happened, not a single one of those teams won a super bowl. 

Or you could look at it a different way. What if Green Bay wins one more game that year and picks #5 overall? They draft Deion Sanders instead of Mandarich. 

 

*The only exception in my opinion is if it is for a great QB prospect then lose the game.

Not really.  I mean I don’t know how most had people evaluated back then.  There is obviously always a chance you make the wrong pick/evaluation.  But in general having a higher pick=getting a more elite player.  

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19 minutes ago, germ-x said:

Not really.  I mean I don’t know how most had people evaluated back then.  There is obviously always a chance you make the wrong pick/evaluation.  But in general having a higher pick=getting a more elite player.  

Unless you're Bill B and Demaryius Thomas lite falls in your lap at 32 I mean jeez how does he do it every year.

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It’s silly to pretend there are going to be more examples of teams being better off winning those meaningless games and having the lower pick. We don’t have to go draft by draft, but I guarantee that’s not the case.

It’s simple. You have the higher pick, you have more options available to you. That will always be better then having less options. Making the wrong evaluation is a separate issue. Getting boxed out of the elite tier of a draft by winning a game nobody gives a crap about is not helpful to a franchise. 

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