call me crazy but....

[TecmoSuperJoe]

35 minutes ago, Ftn49 said:

Good finds... especially that last one. I was looking a bit and found the Simmons one but I just remember the espn shows (when it was actually decent) talking about how Brady wasn't in the same category as Manning ect. and then the team shut him out in the 2004 playoffs for the most part and then the pats offense wasn't good enough to beat the pitts D in the championship game because Brady was just a game manager etc. It did evolve around the time that Moss went there.

Championship game?

[y2lamanaki]

^2004 season AFC Championship game 

Edited October 31, 2019 by y2lamanaki

[Pandomonium]

ok you guys win,

We're the greatest team ever 
We will go undefeated and win the superbowl this year
Jimmy can turn the ball over once a game and we will still win every game because....our defense is fool-proof
I am completely off-base for being concerned about this and I am unnecessarily panicking for nothing.

Far be it from anyone to have a different opinion on this board than the majority ....*gasps* blasphemous 
 

sigh 
*eye roll*

 

Edited October 31, 2019 by Pandomonium
left out something

[Forge]

9 minutes ago, Pandomonium said:

ok you guys win,

We're the greatest team ever 
We will go undefeated and win the superbowl this year
Jimmy can turn the ball over once a game and we will still win every game because....our defense is fool-proof
I am completely off-base for being concerned about this and I am unnecessarily panicking for nothing.

Far be it from anyone to have a different opinion on this board than the majority ....*gasps* blasphemous 
 

sigh 
*eye roll*

 

You're handling this well. 

[NinerNation21]

19 minutes ago, Pandomonium said:

ok you guys win,

We're the greatest team ever 
We will go undefeated and win the superbowl this year
Jimmy can turn the ball over once a game and we will still win every game because....our defense is fool-proof
I am completely off-base for being concerned about this and I am unnecessarily panicking for nothing.

Far be it from anyone to have a different opinion on this board than the majority ....*gasps* blasphemous 
 

sigh 
*eye roll*

 

So, it's either:

Option A: We have problems and can't overcome them, so this season is doomed

Option B: We're the greatest ever and will win everything by a wide margin

No middle ground?

 

It's perfectly fair to understand and realize the team has issues to clean up and still be optimistic that they can overcome them to make a deep playoff run.

 

[y2lamanaki]

28 minutes ago, Pandomonium said:

ok you guys win,

We're the greatest team ever 
We will go undefeated and win the superbowl this year
Jimmy can turn the ball over once a game and we will still win every game because....our defense is fool-proof
I am completely off-base for being concerned about this and I am unnecessarily panicking for nothing.

Far be it from anyone to have a different opinion on this board than the majority ....*gasps* blasphemous 
 

sigh 
*eye roll*

 

There's an old saying that goes something like this: 

"Don't ask for someone to call you crazy in a message board thread title and then get upset when people call you crazy."

I mean...it's not very old, but it's older than this post.

[Forge]

Here's the problem @Pandomonium. You're more concerned about being right and everyone agreeing with you than actually getting it right. Turnovers can randomly kill any game. That happens. You don't even need to be turnover prone for that to happen. But it doesn't really appear that you have any interest discussing this with the possibility that there's not much here to talk about. Do we need to turn the ball over less? Yes. Is it something that I'm overly concerned with at the current point in time? No, not really. Especially with the context of a 5 turnover game killing the numbers. 

@y2lamanaki provides historical context where a turnover rate like this happens, but apparently that doesn't really matter. 

I provide context for the current year's statistics. We are largely still middle of the pack in turnovers, which includes an outlier 5 TO game that is probably unlikely to be replicated). We have 2 more than NFC contender Minnesota, 2 more than AFC contender Houston. We are also still 6th best in the NFL in turnover differential, which is the number I'm more concerned with at the current point in time. 

I ask why our issues are a bigger deal than our fellow contender issues, and there's no reply. Why is this issue bigger than New Orleans being unable to stop people from scoring touchdowns in the red zone (currently 23rd) and scoring points at a middle of the pack rate? Why is this issue bigger than Green Bay struggling to stop people on third down or their rather mediocre sack rate? Etc. It seems like you need a team to be flawless, and none of these teams are. They all have areas that can be exploited. Are we the best team in the NFC? I don't know. I really like New Orleans. But I do know that we are one of the best teams in the NFC and we will be able to beat any of these other contenders on any given day just as they will be able to beat us. I don't get the need for this team having to "dominate the nfl" in order not to be concerned. That doesn't compute to me. None of these teams is going to dominate the NFL. 

Teams have strengths and weaknesses. 

Could the turnovers be a problem? Absolutely. Could the lack of our own red zone efficiency be a problem? Absolutely. So could any number of our competitors issues. 

These things that were brought up above are not blind homerism and fandom.  Yet because they don't align with the perception that we should all be freaking out over this they turn to "we are the greatest team ever" etc etc. Nobody has said that. What people are largely saying is that they have no real reason to be concerned over this issue at the current point in time. Maybe that will change by the end of the season. But there are plenty of reasons why we don't need  to be concerned about it right now, with several points mentioned above. 

[clarkfn2284]

4 hours ago, Pandomonium said:

I am concerned with Gould as well but not as much as jimmy averaging a turnover a game.

BTW 
if averaging a turnover a game isn't "concrete" enough for you to be concerned then something is wrong with you.

This is what i can't stand about some of you on this board. You take what I post about concerns (chinks in our armor) about this team as "oh he's being so negative" or  " oh he thinks the team is trash"  

everything is NOT black and white. there are areas of grey. 

to completely dismiss what I am saying as nothing and hardly a concern is classic hubris and many of you sound like those stupid cowboy fans who think everything is just fine with the team and there are no concerns. 

I think we have a fantastic team and CAN contend for a 6th championship however there are some things that anyone who can objectively view this team can obviously see are real concerns.

So you fanboys can try to down play me all you want. I said what I said. 
Honestly I sincerely hope I am completely wrong about my concerns with this team and you guys are completely right and we run the table all the way to miami and a 6th championship this year. 

 

You know why people view your posts the way that they do? Let me explain it to you. YOU titled the subject "Call Me Crazy But...." YOU brought an overdramatized narrative of the QB being a flaw even though he has yet to cost the team a single game in the campaign. YOU always bring a negative outlook to things on this board(which I don't really mind personally). YOU are the one who called people fan boys. It isn't objective when your perspective is always the same. YOU sir, are not objective at all. YOU brought all of this on yourself and YOU are getting bent out of shape by people disagreeing and in my opinion, intellectually discrediting your thoughts on this topic.

There is a narrative that Jimmy can't win the 49ers a game if called upon. You are pushing that narrative. The facts show that he has and those games have been cited previously. Everything else is conjecture. Comparing him to other players isn't the answer because every player has won and lost games at the QB position in their career.

So let me ask you, since you obviously question Jimmy's ability to be a consistent downfield thrower or win a game when called upon or see him as a glaring flaw on this team, what will it take for you to be comfortable with Jimmy as the guy to lead the team? Please also explain why that instance is more imperative than any other as well. If he goes out tonight and tosses 3 TDs, 70% comp pctg and 350 yards will you be good going forward? If so, what does that change? Why is that it for you? Does he have to beat the Saints or win a playoff game? Then answer this for me as well. What if he wins out, wins a Super Bowl, but never has to lead the team to a game winning drive or be the reason in your eyes that the team won? Then what happens for you?

I think people just want to know what you need to see? I would like to know how that changes anything myself?

[clarkfn2284]

3 hours ago, y2lamanaki said:

"Brady dinked and dunked Indy's D to death, the ultimate game manager and leader, doing whatever it took to win the game."

-Plus much more...

https://www.espn.com/espn/page2/story?page=simmons/050118

"Can Brady come to grips with merely steering a compromised offense out of trouble sometimes and not into the end zone as often as he’s accustomed to, if that’s what is required? Yes. We know Brady can do it because it’s what he did in the early part of his career."

https://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/patriots/2019/09/30/with-this-offense-tom-brady-may-have-game-manager/f4l3GJQ7K82Srw2kpLHGdK/story.html
 

One other great read on the shifting narrative from game manager to dominant QB:

https://medium.com/@rathanharan/tom-brady-a-legacy-defined-by-privilege-211fbde343e9

 

This was a pretty impressive find. I am often amazed what happens when you are challenged.

[clarkfn2284]

1 hour ago, Pandomonium said:

ok you guys win,

We're the greatest team ever 
We will go undefeated and win the superbowl this year
Jimmy can turn the ball over once a game and we will still win every game because....our defense is fool-proof
I am completely off-base for being concerned about this and I am unnecessarily panicking for nothing.

Far be it from anyone to have a different opinion on this board than the majority ....*gasps* blasphemous 
 

sigh 
*eye roll*

 

8 out of the last 10 Super Bowl winning QBs would agree with this statement............

[y2lamanaki]

13 minutes ago, clarkfn2284 said:

This was a pretty impressive find. I am often amazed what happens when you are challenged.

I am very skilled at Google and Pro Football Reference. 

First - I searched: "Tom Brady" "game manager"

That turned up the second two, but both were recent. I thought it would help to have an article from around his early days. 

So secondly- I switched the Google search settings to 01/01/01 to 01/01/07 and searched: "Tom Brady" "game manager"

Google did the rest. But that's basically it. I have to have the gut instinct that something is true or false. In this case, I remembered the situation similarly to @Ftn49.

From there it's basically just knowing good source vs. bad source.

[clarkfn2284]

19 hours ago, 757-NINER said:

Fair enough...

But we have seen him in those moments. The Vikes and Chiefs games last year (two playoff teams) he definitely left plays on the field that could have impacted those outcomes differently. I know it was last year and this is a different team but that doesn't erase the fact. He didn't look good.

I gave Jimmy ALL the credit when he went on his 5 game win streak to end 2017. No one was higher on his potential than me. But his play has dipped since then when I watch the film. I haven't seen that next step in maturation to make me think 'yea, Jimmy got this'. Its not really a 'wins and losses' kind of metric I'm basing it on. Its just the quality of play, at the position. The throws he isn't making or the route he isn't seeing because he's eyes are in the wrong place. Or his footwork STILL affecting his accuracy. I'm saying those things will matter and greatly affect the outcome of big games if those aren't addressed and rectified, sooner rather than later. Those are the kind of things I want to see improvement on before I go yelling "We Da Best". Because I dont think we are until those areas are improved upon. We're still really good of course..

But there's no guarantee that we will see that improvement happen this year because we happen to be 7-0 and our defense is playing outer-worldly...that's all I'm saying. I'm ok with the thought that it maybe next year where it starts to happen for him...and the team. Because sometimes that's how it works out. I'm not in the 'its this year or bust because our defense is playing lights out and we will lose certain free-agents next year' camp. I think the team could be even better and deeper next year so its not imperative that it happens this year. Every team has flaws....absolutely. But when your biggest flaw happens to be your QB and whether or not he can make enough throws so that your passing game isn't a liability, you should have legitimate worries about how you match up in post-season play. 

 

Then all of the concern is for nothing really. If you agree that we may not even need to see the "growth and development" this season. Is it just icing on the cake if we do? I just  don't see how the passing game is considered a liability at this point. The game scripts have yet to require the pass game to be more than it has been. This team is running the ball and gapping teams in the second half to the point where the pass game hasn't even needed to be called upon.

The two closest games this season have asterisks on them. Washington 9-0, with weather like that, you can't look at much and make any assumptions. Pittsburgh 24-20, 5 turnovers in the game, a very abnormal game due to the turnovers, 1 on a deflection IIRC. This game Jimmy threw the ball well including the game winning TD. So where is the issue at this point?

Like I said in Episode 11 of the 49ers Future Podcast (go give it another listen, it was the best episode yet!) I'm aware of the passing game, but not concerned. I'm aware of it because I see the circumstances that are not requiring the pass offense to be a focus. If this pass offense were like this and they had a record of 3-4 I would have concern, but the pass offense more than likely wouldn't be like this in that circumstance because they would be asked to throw more in that scenario.

[rudyZ]

8 hours ago, N4L said:

I started to eviscerate someone in this thread but then I deleted it and decided it is not worth my time or energy. 

I'll just say this, I think this is the best place to talk 49er football on the internet. Super knowledgeable people here and I'm a better fan for reading what a lot of you guys say. This thread is not one of those times 

It was me, wasn't it...

[Forge]

1 minute ago, rudyZ said:

It was me, wasn't it...

You're one of the super knowledgeable people who has made him a better fan by reading what you say. 

[rudyZ]

6 hours ago, Pandomonium said:

ok you guys win,

We're the greatest team ever 
We will go undefeated and win the superbowl this year
Jimmy can turn the ball over once a game and we will still win every game because....our defense is fool-proof
I am completely off-base for being concerned about this and I am unnecessarily panicking for nothing.

Far be it from anyone to have a different opinion on this board than the majority ....*gasps* blasphemous 
 

sigh 
*eye roll*

 

 

All teams have their issues. Not all these issues end up costing them their seasons. It will ultimately comes down to who has the better game plan in the playoffs, and lucky things like injuries. The glaring issues will come way behind that. Teams with real glaring issues usually don't make the playoffs, because these issues are exploited in the regular season. Sure, we're not perfect. But we have the Head Coach in place to overcome issues. Maybe we get bad breaks on the injury front and we can't overcome those at some point. But so far so good.