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When should Drew Lock start games this year?

When do you think Lock should be starting games this year?  

21 members have voted

  1. 1. Drew Lock should be (not will be) starting games for DEN on...

    • Week 11-12 @ BUF / @vMIN - might as well find out ASAP and get as many games in
    • Week 13-14 - vs. LAC / @ HOU - get him 2-4 weeks practice, and easier matchups (home game, no Watt)
    • Week 15-16 - @ KC / vs. DET - 2-3 games is enough to see what we have
    • Week 17 vs. OAK - the Mahomes model (but KC was fighting for a playoff spot, dudes...)
      0
    • Not until 2020 (give your reasons if you choose this PLZ)!


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24 minutes ago, jolly red giant said:

What we do know is that there are times Elway wants to change things and Ellis is the block on the changes. While Elway does bear responsibility - the win-now stuff is likely coming from Ellis and when it comes to looking for a head to chop, I would start at the very top and see where it takes us before going down the list.

100% agree with this post and we just don't know what % of what blame goes around. I will say if Lock is a hit John Elway is on the fast track to being a top 5 gm coincidentally. 

Back in 2016 the 3rd round pick trading for Kaep was contingent on him reducing his salary to 7 million. I've only heard trades like that going on in New England. If that  got hung up because of Ellis and his penny pinching ways he deserves to be fired more so than John Elway. If Kaep was traded for no matter what his success in Denver was, Dak Presscott would of been a Denver Bronco over Paxton Lynch, Chris Jones is a Denver Bronco and Elway looks like a top 5 gm atm.

All this can't identify qb crap goes out the window that's why I'm so hyped about Lock. This is a game of inches and $ in more ways than one.

Edited by thebestever6

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3 hours ago, jolly red giant said:

I would suggest that people go back and read AAA's post here (one that he wasn't hyper when posting) -

https://forums.footballsfuture.com/topic/21707-chris-harris-jr-trade/?page=26&tab=comments#comment-2249643

People are blaming Elway when I hold the view that the problem is Ellis.

Elway can be stubborn, can take time to admit mistakes, did a bad job of drafting and hired VJ - there is plenty to criticise him for.

But remember - he wanted to can VJ after one season - had an agreement in place to bring back Mike Shanahan as a HC with Kubiak as OC and Shanahan had a deal in place to bring Cousins to Denver as QB - with Shanahan saying that everyone was on the same page as a plan for taking things forward - except Ellis blocked the deal - we get stuck with VJ and Kubiak (who should get more credit than he does for helping with the draft that year) goes off to the Vikes. I would love to have Kubiak here mentoring Scangs like the job he is doing in Minnesota. 

It is possible that Elway wanted Kyle S in Denver and that Ellis blocked it - just like he did with Mike - we don't know.

What we do know is that there are times Elway wants to change things and Ellis is the block on the changes. While Elway does bear responsibility - the win-now stuff is likely coming from Ellis and when it comes to looking for a head to chop, I would start at the very top and see where it takes us before going down the list.

If we're talking coaching-level hires, absolutely Ellis' philosophy and money-first approach should be held to account.

But let's also be clear - Ellis isn't making personnel decisions in who we look to acquire, who we sign, who we trade for.   He *might* veto a firesale as a starting position - that's fair.   But he's also not the one making the actual personnel decisions.  And it's fair to say that the biggest reason why we are in the mess we are in now is that Elway's 2013-7 draft approach was so poor that it left the cupboards bare, and that the 2017-8 stopgap win-now FA signings were complete disasters.  Those are all on Elway.    We can try to mitigate Elway's commitment to win-now as being Ellis, but we can't be sure if that's really the case or not.   

Either way,  though, it's pretty hard to separate Elway/Ellis in this, so while we probably can't lay this all at Elway's feet, we also like can't absolve him completely for the mentality, either.   The only way to be absolutely sure on how much of inability to switch gears completely to a total-rebuild falls on Elway and how much falls on Ellis - to see what happens when they're separated and taking on a rebuild project.  We probably won't ever find out in DEN what the mix is, unless 1 is gone and 1 is still around.    

Having said that, the actual personnel moves made during this time are all Elway.   Trading for Joe Flacco with a 4th instead of going the Bridgewater/Tannehill route.   Going Lock over a later choice (or an earlier one).   Deciding to restructure Von's 2016 money to get Clinton McDonald, Jared Veldheer & Tramaine Brock.  The 2017 draft in its entirety.   

Now, I would be remiss in not balancing the above with Elway's amazing 2011-15 work as GM, and his 2011-12 draft which set the foundation for our run.  And the 2011-15 FA & UDFA work which kept our cyle of contention going until the 2011-2 draft core got expensive, or couldn't be retained (and yes, PFM's departure).   And the 2018-9 draft approach change is our strongest reason for hope, even if the class isn't certainly a set quantity other than in the early rounds (ironicallly, Elway shouldn't have changed his Day 3 approach of going for the home run <just Day 2 it's a disaster given it's not necessary>, but hopefully he can blend old & new).    Plus, he's still a strong cap-management guy in doing extensions and setting up FA contracts.

But it's fair to say for what Elway can control, the results have been very much sub-par to downright awful from 2017-9.    It doesn't invalidate his first 6 years of excellence - but 3 straight years is a lot of rope for anyone to use.  It's why Elway's clearly in the hot seat now.  And most of all because the O gives us no reason to feel like it's headed in the right direction, and QB most of all.   It's why Elway's future as our GM will live/die with the next 2020 QB commitment made - whether it's Lock, another stopgap (ugh ugh ugh) or diving early Rd1 (god please not Herbert given Elway's track record and his lack of progress....god), Elway's used all of the enormous capital of patience and goodwill with the fanbase.   And to be fair, it's all earned (just like the goodwill and cred he built up from 2011-15 with 2016 given a pass was earned, too).

Edited by Broncofan
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I cant even believe that some people are willing to punt on this QB class if we don't see Lock. That would be so foolish. There are 5+ better QB prospects in this draft than Lock. We need to go the AZ way and throw him to the fire like Rosen, see if he is a sunk cost and move on if he sucks. Look how well that worked for AZ, now they have a true franchise QB.

I would be astounded if Tua, Burrow and Hurts are not considerably better than Lock. I am 50/50 on Herbert being better and a bit lower on Fromm, Eason and especially Love. I think Chad Kelly was a better talent than Lock.

Give Lock the Rosen treatment and see what happens. This fanbase doesn't deserve to watch off-the-street QB's for the rest of this season. Also, this highlights how the team should always have a QB prospect on the PS. At least go with Brett Rypien.

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33 minutes ago, BroncosFan2010 said:

I cant even believe that some people are willing to punt on this QB class if we don't see Lock. That would be so foolish. There are 5+ better QB prospects in this draft than Lock. We need to go the AZ way and throw him to the fire like Rosen, see if he is a sunk cost and move on if he sucks. Look how well that worked for AZ, now they have a true franchise QB.

I would be astounded if Tua, Burrow and Hurts are not considerably better than Lock. I am 50/50 on Herbert being better and a bit lower on Fromm, Eason and especially Love. I think Chad Kelly was a better talent than Lock.

Give Lock the Rosen treatment and see what happens. This fanbase doesn't deserve to watch off-the-street QB's for the rest of this season. Also, this highlights how the team should always have a QB prospect on the PS. At least go with Brett Rypien.

I agree with you on the Lock assessment as my initial evaluation - just keep in mind part of the fear with going QB Rd1 in 2020 is that Elway's heavily linked to Herbert.   Elway only saw 2 QB's in person last year - Herbert & Lock.   He only saw 2 players in person the year before - Rosen & Darnold (playing each other) - and we know he ruled out Rosen, and he tried to trade up for Darnold with NYG for 1.2 (but GM Gettleman wouldn't take his call).  THAT is my main problem here.   

FWIW, I'm not sold on Hurts, simply because a guy who is meh with a great 'Bama team talent advantage, it doesn't reassure me that the OKL system brings out great numbers for 1 year.  Kyler's 1 year also came with really special levels of elusiveness, ability to extend plays and make money throws vs. elite D's in the BCS game that I haven't seen Hurts demonstrate those NFL-required skills (and now that OKL lost to KSU last week, we may not get that chance with BCS chances looking iffy).   We're never going to sniff Tua or Burrow unless we have a top 4-5 pick, more likely a top 3 - and MIA/CIN/NYJ look like they're going to get there ahead of us, with ATL firmly doing a better job than us of picking early, too.

All of that said, I completely agree that at least 3-4 guys in this draft class are head and shoulders above where Drew Lock was (and ended up) pre-draft.  But the big issue IMO is that Elway's infatuation with certain types is still a thing.  And the fear that he'd go Herbert is very real.  I don't think we will pick any earlier to be picking from the top 2 QB (Tua-Burrow, or vice-versa).    So that puts Herbert very much in the cross-hairs, and it would take a Rd1 pick to make it happen.   That is a really scary prop, because we're not getting any of those guys with a Rd2 pick.   And the chance to get not just a good, but generational level non-QB talent is there.   And keep in mind I would ALWAYS take the franchise QB over the non-QB position - but I am very concerned it won't be the the other guys vs. non-QB that's being discussed - but Herbert.   And if it's an Andrew Thomas like talent we're passing on for Herbert, man...I dunno.  So take it FWIW.  

P.S.  Having said that, I still think we are going to see Lock play this year.   I just hope it's more than just 1-2 games.   That would be a massive mistake.

Edited by Broncofan

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19 minutes ago, BroncosFan2010 said:

I cant even believe that some people are willing to punt on this QB class if we don't see Lock. That would be so foolish. There are 5+ better QB prospects in this draft than Lock. We need to go the AZ way and throw him to the fire like Rosen, see if he is a sunk cost and move on if he sucks. Look how well that worked for AZ, now they have a true franchise QB.

Who suggested we are going to punt the class if we don't see Lock? I haven't even seen one person suggest since Flacco went down that we're not going to see lock the question now becomes when?

I'm Locked in on the fact that Drew is the answer, but I can be swayed otherwise by poor play and lack of development. I just hope people on here aren't overly critical of a rookie qb with poor tackles.  

Wilkinson I keep reading is their long term answer to guard and hes playing tackle. 

Edited by thebestever6

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5 minutes ago, thebestever6 said:

Who suggested we are going to punt the class if we don't see Lock? I haven't even seen one person suggest since Flacco went down that we're not going to see lock the question now becomes when?

I'm Locked in on the fact that Drew is the answer, but I can be swayed otherwise by poor play and lack of development. I just hope people on here aren't overly critical of a rookie qb with poor tackles.  

Wilkinson I keep reading is their long term answer to guard and hes playing tackle. 

Well, it's already referenced in page 1 - and Elway's refusal to commit to when we see Lock makes it a valid question.   As does Scangarelli's take on Lock's level of readiness to play now.  

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^ as Bronco fan from UK said why have Lock be rushed back to take a beating behind this oline? Let Allen take a beating or 2.

@Broncofan you yourself said weeks ago his target date to start was week 13 against the chargers. What's the point of rushing that time line with this o line?

To quote the great Ricky Watters for who for what?

Edited by thebestever6

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6 minutes ago, thebestever6 said:

^ as Bronco fan from UK said why have Lock be rushed back to take a beating behind this oline? Let Allen take a beating or 2.

@Broncofan you yourself said weeks ago his target date to start was week 13 against the chargers. What's the point of rushing that time line with this o line?

To quote the great Ricky Watters for who for what?

You asked specifically "where has it been mentioned about Elway passing on the draft but not playing Lock" - the answer is above. 

It doesn't mean I think that's the right play, either.  It also doesn't mean I want to start him next week.  But you asked - so it's answered.   It's a perfectly legitimate Q @BroncosFan2010 is bringing up, even Elway & Scangarelli's statements do not make it clear how much time, if any, that Lock is going to get on the field.   BF2010's Q seems more than fair to discuss.   Even if I don't think it's going to happen, it's not out of the realm of outcomes that Lock gets no actual gametime (it would be a colossal mistake, but it's definitely in the range of outcomes given how slowly Elway/Scangarelli are taking to get Lock even on the practice field).

Edited by Broncofan
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1 minute ago, Broncofan said:

Even if I don't think it's going to happen, it's not out of the realm of outcomes.

Fair enough your attendance bet was a safer bet though lol

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10-1 odds around these parts Lock starts 3 games or over I get the over. Injuries null and void that bet.

You have Elways Arrogance and a rookie oc going your way.

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7 minutes ago, The Helicopter said:

I voted 2020. He's not ready to go so that tells me exactly what we have heading into next year...

Just to be clear - you're saying 0 games, and Elway should draft QB no matter what if the right guy is there Rd1?  Or does it have to be a certain guy(s)?  I applaud taking the bold stance, but also want to be clear on what you just said lol.

Edited by Broncofan

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6 minutes ago, The Helicopter said:

I voted 2020. He's not ready to go so that tells me exactly what we have heading into next year...

So Brandon Allen plays well enough to hold off this fanbase because that's what it's going to take.

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Brandon Allen will have to be Nick Mullens 2.0 for him to hold off Drew I hope people realize this .

And if that happens Scangerello the QB whisperer will have my support whatever he decides. 

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14 hours ago, germ-x said:

Obviously that’s what most of these shows are and they’re getting paid, but is he all that wrong? Further, pretty ballsy for a former teammate to say who you won 2 SBs with.  He easily could’ve thrown support toward Elway, but he literally trashed him about as hard as anyone I’ve heard/read.

Yeah I saw that and it was really awkward. I don't know why he basically trashed Elway for 3 straight mins calling him horrible at his job and that he doesn't trust him at all to fix anything. It almost sounded personal.

Especially considering they played together and he is also a alum of the franchise it seemed he was incredibly harsh on somebody he probably would call a friend.

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