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Cam Newton might be available for trade


cconocool

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8 minutes ago, Snake Plissken said:

I guess you didn't read the parts about leadership, team talent, health, fit, and salaryo.O

I did. My point is still valid. W/L record will always be the weakest argument made. Even more so when you look at Superbowl W/L

If that's truly the case, Rex Grossman and Colin Kaepernick were great QBs because they at least made the SB. Trent Dilfer and Brad Johnson were elite QBs for winning one.

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1 hour ago, SteelKing728 said:

I did. My point is still valid. W/L record will always be the weakest argument made. Even more so when you look at Superbowl W/L

If that's truly the case, Rex Grossman and Colin Kaepernick were great QBs because they at least made the SB. Trent Dilfer and Brad Johnson were elite QBs for winning one.

That may have been what you intended, but not what you communicated.  Your point was that this board was using QB wins and loses to determine who was better.  Which was not true.  And if you did read actually read other's posts, then you are completely misrepresenting them to fit the point you wanted to make (but didn't). 

So if you want to make a point, make it clear and honest.

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19 hours ago, cconocool said:

Should we put in a bid?

I was thinking he would be perfect here, but other teams might outbid us and as long as we have Cousins, he won't fit salary-wise.

Ummm, no.  Cam Newton was already regressing as a QB before his latest injury.  Cousins is a better QB than Cam Newton at this point in their careers.

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18 hours ago, Cearbhall said:

Depending on how the rest of this season goes, I would trade Kirk Cousins and his $31M cap hit away for Cam Newton and his $21M cap hit. Both would be in their last year and neither is a guy that I would be looking to extend with a big money deal.

But yeah, how things sit now I would gladly take Cam Newton next year and an extra $10M in cap space over standing pat with Kirk Cousins. The $10M in cap space could be used to improve the offensive line. That would help either of those QBs (although probably more important to have offensive line be a team strength if your QB is Kirk Cousins).

If the Panthers wanted something other than Kirk Cousins I wouldn't even be talking to them.

Also, if Kirk Cousins plays out the rest of this year near how he played for the whole month of October my opinion of him would be significantly higher and I would keep him next year.

You're not going to improve the offensive line significantly with $10M.

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47 minutes ago, swede700 said:

You're not going to improve the offensive line significantly with $10M.

You don't think so? An extra $4M in cap space to LT is the difference between Trent Brown and Reilly Reiff this year. For $4.25M in cap space this year the Vikings could have Billy Turner at LG and kept Pat Elflein with the team as the interior backup.

If you don't like those particular players, there are alternatives. I picked those guys because they were free agents signed this year. Obviously the Vikings would be looking at the guys available next year. There will be some. It is not hard to imagine an extra $10M upgrading both LG and LT. If you can't find a free agent that you could get for $10M that you don't like better than Pat Elflein, you obviously think a lot higher than Pat Elfein's NFL skills than I do.

The Viking current starting five offensive line has a cap value of ~$19.2M this year. Injecting another $10M is a huge percentage change.

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13 minutes ago, Cearbhall said:

You don't think so? An extra $4M in cap space to LT is the difference between Trent Brown and Reilly Reiff this year. For $4.25M in cap space this year the Vikings could have Billy Turner at LG and kept Pat Elflein with the team as the interior backup.

If you don't like those particular players, there are alternatives. I picked those guys because they were free agents signed this year. Obviously the Vikings would be looking at the guys available next year. There will be some. It is not hard to imagine an extra $10M upgrading both LG and LT. If you can't find a free agent that you could get for $10M that you don't like better than Pat Elflein, you obviously think a lot higher than Pat Elfein's NFL skills than I do.

The Viking current starting five offensive line has a cap value of ~$19.2M this year. Injecting another $10M is a huge percentage change.

That extra cap space will need to be spent on a backup who can actually play given that Newton is breaking down physically. Maybe you draft a QB early in that scenario but that is one less early pick available that could have been used to help make Cousins better, is ie better interior OL.

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38 minutes ago, vikingsrule said:

That extra cap space will need to be spent on a backup who can actually play given that Newton is breaking down physically. Maybe you draft a QB early in that scenario but that is one less early pick available that could have been used to help make Cousins better, is ie better interior OL.

Well, yeah, looking for a QB in the draft would be a priority for me whether the Vikings had Cousins or Newton. But yeah, you are right that with Newton the backup is more important. In the most ideal scenario Cousins looks good for the rest of the year and the Vikings would feel comfortable resigning him.  For purposes of this discussion on Newton, I have predicated my discussion on the Vikings moving on from Cousins.

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18 hours ago, Ozzy said:

True but Kirk Cousins in 83 games is 40 Wins, 41 Loses and 2 Ties and 1 Playoff loss in only one game played.

 

Cam Newton in 131 games is 71 wins, 59 loses and 1 tie.  Also has a Super Bowl appearance and is 3 and 4 in the Playoffs.

 

Say whatever you want about Cam not being healthy, but as an inspirational and charismatic leader he is night and day above Kirk Cousins who seems to struggle to relate to and or inspire his teammates.  Hopefully that changes but a healthy Cam Newton I would take all day over Kirk Cousins just in leadership alone.  He is not a great passer but in the right offense and healthy he is very hard to deal with.  Only question is health and recently the past few years he has not looked good, but if Kirk had Cam's health issues he would simply not be in the league anymore honestly.  Cam is such a fighter and great athlete he can still kind of struggle along despite his health issues but that might be soon coming to an end.  Oddly enough Cam is 30, Kirk is 31.  Cam was a MVP at one point, Kirk will never be that in the NFL.  

 

I don't give one flying squirrel nut about what he did in the past. Congrats Cam on being an MVP 4 years ago!

His future is pointing towards major regression mostly due to a major shoulder injury that mad him miss all this season and he looked like absolutely dreadful when he did play through it. Hell, he might even need a major surgery which would keep him out in 2020 as well.

I mean if you want to bring him in because he's inspirational and a charismatic, sign him as the team's in-house motivational speaker but I want nothing to do with a  guy who's shoulder is that bad when his main job is using said shoulder to throw a ball 40 yards down field at 45 MPH.

If he were healthy with no injury concerns, yes. Everyone would gladly take Cam over Kirk. But he's not. Carolina wouldn't even consider dropping/trading him if he was healthy. So what does that tell you? 

You can tout Cam being a former MVP or winning twice as many games as Kirk or Cam making it to a Super Bowl but all of that means nothing when Cam isn't playing the game while Kirk is. Right now, Kirk is the better QB because he's the only one on the field.

Edited by Vikes_Bolts1228
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3 hours ago, Vikes_Bolts1228 said:

I don't give one flying squirrel nut about what he did in the past. Congrats Cam on being an MVP 4 years ago!

His future is pointing towards major regression mostly due to a major shoulder injury that mad him miss all this season and he looked like absolutely dreadful when he did play through it. Hell, he might even need a major surgery which would keep him out in 2020 as well.

I mean if you want to bring him in because he's inspirational and a charismatic, sign him as the team's in-house motivational speaker but I want nothing to do with a  guy who's shoulder is that bad when his main job is using said shoulder to throw a ball 40 yards down field at 45 MPH.

If he were healthy with no injury concerns, yes. Everyone would gladly take Cam over Kirk. But he's not. Carolina wouldn't even consider dropping/trading him if he was healthy. So what does that tell you? 

You can tout Cam being a former MVP or winning twice as many games as Kirk or Cam making it to a Super Bowl but all of that means nothing when Cam isn't playing the game while Kirk is. Right now, Kirk is the better QB because he's the only one on the field.

Very true, but when all things end, doubt Kirk ever accomplishes what Cam did in the pros or as football player in general.  Cam Newton is far superior and actually wins big games and has won big games in college and in the pros, National title in college with a historic and memorable championship season, and that MVP year and the Super bowl year in the NFL along with some other fine seasons.  

 

Kirk's biggest win arguably of his career post season college or pro is a win in the Outback bowl his senior year at Michigan State against Georgia who was 16th in the nation and had Aaron Murray as their QB.  Mind you Kirk had Le'Veon Bell as his RB in that game.

What other big game wins and victories did he have?  Hard to think of many if any.  That is the point, I know it is not really possible because of Cam's injuries, but as a competitor and as a leader and someone that inspires his team, he has done it before.  Kirk never has, but sure is currently more healthy, does not mean long term or grand scheme of things he is a better QB or leader.

 

Hopefully Kirk can accomplish some all time career firsts this year with actually winning games that matter.  First needs to do that in the regular season though before one can even think about postseason success.  

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1 minute ago, Ozzy said:

Very true, but when all things end, doubt Kirk ever accomplishes what Cam did in the pros or as football player in general.  Cam Newton is far superior and actually wins big games and has won big games in college and in the pros, National title in college with a historic and memorable championship season, and that MVP year and the Super bowl year in the NFL along with some other fine seasons.  

 

Kirk's biggest win arguably of his career post season college or pro is a win in the Outback bowl his senior year at Michigan State against Georgia who was 16th in the nation and had Aaron Murray as their QB.  Mind you Kirk had Le'Veon Bell as his RB in that game.

What other big game wins and victories did he have?  Hard to think of many if any.  That is the point, I know it is not really possible because of Cam's injuries, but as a competitor and as a leader and someone that inspires his team, he has done it before.  Kirk never has, but sure is currently more healthy, does not mean long term or grand scheme of things he is a better QB or leader.

 

Hopefully Kirk can accomplish some all time career firsts this year with actually winning games that matter.  First needs to do that in the regular season though before one can even think about postseason success.  

How did this turn into yet another debate about Kirk's failures/weaknesses? We know ALL of them.

But the SIMPLE fact of the matter is that Kirk is the one that's playing right now. He's not the one with a completely ruined shoulder.

If this team had Cam right now, they'd be starting Mannion so you can sit here until you're blue in the face saying that Cam is better than Kirk and it'd be as productive as saying that Dan Marino is better than Kirk because it doesn't matter if Cam/Marino are better because they're not playing right now.

 

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