germ-x Posted January 30, 2020 Share Posted January 30, 2020 5 hours ago, Broncofan said: To be clear, I don't think Fangio sees CB as a disposable position - but rather, what he looks for in a skill set is more devalued in today's NFL. No one would say "no thanks" to a CB with blanket-cover skills - but Fangio wants a zone-scheme CB who is a sure tackler, can cover but most importantly, read the QB's eyes and O formation and jump routes / plays with eyes on the pocket on a lot of the pass downs. Rather than the guy who just takes on a star WR and follows him everywhere. Think more of a Sherman-type than a Revis-type at their peak. Because the zone-scheme friendly CB skills are more devalued, it offers the chance to find future starters at a much lower cost/premium. That's my main point on CB & this draft - and it meshes especially well in 2020's draft class, because there aren't a lot of top 50 talents at CB. I do think Bausby shows very clear top 3 potential - but man, that injury is not one we can rely on a return. I do think Elway will both hit FA & the draft for CB depth - but it's not a great position to find an impact guy either at top dollar in FA, or in Rd 1-2 in the draft. I agree with the idea of looking for value in FA (Kendall Fuller is one name that's intriguing), and definitely hitting CB with one of our Rd3-4 picks. It's just not a year where we're likely finding a big FA or early draft solution. There isn't a Tre'Davius White or Jaire Alexander or Kyle Fuller type guy IMO this year that would be worth taking in the 20's range, let alone the 15 spot. Fuller shows that if there's a guy who fits the scheme, Fangio isn't afraid to advocate to go early - but you can also find guys who fit with a lower price tag, because those skills don't get premium value come Draft Day (or even in FA - Prince Amukamara being a prime example of this, getting the 1-year prove it deal off his time in JAX). Doesn't mean we can't go early for CB in future years - but the team will be hopefully in better position to justify a big CB spend $/draft-capital wise, this offseason it comes off as a HUGE reach based on need, where the talent/value isn't there. For a team that's not quite finished our rebuild, keep acquiring young talent with 2021+ potential, and if we find a guy who helps now, great. But a big $ or early round spend on CB doesn't seem wise at all, given our available choices. I get it to an extent. But CB, IMO is the 2nd most difficult position in football outside of QB. I don’t think it’s a position that should be devalued at all, regardless of scheme (the majority of teams in the NFL are running match zone/split field concepts, it’s the best way to counter the option/rub routes that have become a staple of pretty much every NFL offense), so what Fangio is doing on the back end isn’t novel in 2020. Not saying he may not be able to coach it/vary it/disguise it better than others. In the pass happy NFL and in this division with the WR talent and Patrick Mahomes, Denver will need very good CB play. I’m not saying they need to go out and sign a big name CB and draft one in the top 2 rounds this year (though depending on the players I wouldn’t be upset if they did) but there is a vibe in this forum that Denver doesn’t need to spend FA dollars/high draft capital at CB which I don’t agree with at all. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BroncoSojia Posted January 30, 2020 Share Posted January 30, 2020 I really hope we throw money at someone like Bradberry or Byron Jones in FA for one of our corner spots. If/when CHJ leaves, there’s going to be a gaping hole there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scoundrel Posted January 30, 2020 Share Posted January 30, 2020 12 hours ago, BroncoSojia said: I really hope we throw money at someone like Bradberry or Byron Jones in FA for one of our corner spots. If/when CHJ leaves, there’s going to be a gaping hole there. Yes and I’m usually a build through the draft guy and supplement need with FA. I’d hate to overdraft one of these corners this year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BroncosFan2010 Posted January 30, 2020 Share Posted January 30, 2020 Quote I really hope we throw money at someone like Bradberry or Byron Jones in FA for one of our corner spots. If/when CHJ leaves, there’s going to be a gaping hole there. Bradberry could be a scheme fit but Byron is a straight up man corner. I am also simply not a fan of throwing 12M+ at a CB when we could pay that amount and keep CHJ. He may have lost half a step, but he is still borderline elite and I want cultural continuity. Vets mean something, guys like Wolfe and CHJ created this defensive culture and to let them walk just to sign guys that are slightly younger just isnt how you build a team IMO. Keep them and get the young guys through the draft. Wolfe and CHJ should be back if they come reasonable prices. I understand letting them walk if the cost is too high, but letting them walk to sign similarly priced buy younger guys is a fools way to build a team. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
germ-x Posted January 30, 2020 Share Posted January 30, 2020 2 hours ago, BroncosFan2010 said: Bradberry could be a scheme fit but Byron is a straight up man corner. I am also simply not a fan of throwing 12M+ at a CB when we could pay that amount and keep CHJ. He may have lost half a step, but he is still borderline elite and I want cultural continuity. Vets mean something, guys like Wolfe and CHJ created this defensive culture and to let them walk just to sign guys that are slightly younger just isnt how you build a team IMO. Keep them and get the young guys through the draft. Wolfe and CHJ should be back if they come reasonable prices. I understand letting them walk if the cost is too high, but letting them walk to sign similarly priced buy younger guys is a fools way to build a team. It really comes down to the years for each. Losing half a step this year could be a full step next. Neither Harris/Wolfe should be signed over 2 seasons. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BroncoBruin Posted January 30, 2020 Share Posted January 30, 2020 They better have a plan A and plan B ready to go at the corner position when free agency opens. If you're certain you won't get something done at the start of free agency with Harris, you may need to close a deal with another corner quickly. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Broncofan Posted January 30, 2020 Share Posted January 30, 2020 (edited) 16 hours ago, BroncoSojia said: I really hope we throw money at someone like Bradberry or Byron Jones in FA for one of our corner spots. If/when CHJ leaves, there’s going to be a gaping hole there. If CAR is keeping a man scheme I don’t see Bradberry leaving. CAR has no big other UFA to retain so at worst they tag him. As mentioned Byron Jones is a pure man CB. Again I get the angst about our CB position - but this is a bad year to look for a big upgrade either for high end FA or early in the draft. The one name I’ll mention again is Kendall Fuller. He’s not going to be cheap but he won’t be elite level $. And at 25 and prior success on a bad WAS D he has zone friendly skills. It’s likely going to be an underwhelming FA / draft class for obvious impact guys though this year. The draft talent is seen as O / trench friendly (except for high end QB) for a reason. Edited January 30, 2020 by Broncofan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BroncosFan2010 Posted January 30, 2020 Share Posted January 30, 2020 Quote He’s not going to be cheap but he won’t be elite level $. And at 25 and prior success on a bad WAS D he has zone friendly skills. If we let CHJ walk, he is the guy I want. Good, mature character but still young. I dont think he is worth more than 7-8M AV though, and he almost certainly will get more than that. If your talking about paying Fuller 10M or CHJ 13M, I think its clear you pay the extra 3M AV for CHJ. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Broncofan Posted January 30, 2020 Share Posted January 30, 2020 (edited) 2 hours ago, BroncosFan2010 said: If we let CHJ walk, he is the guy I want. Good, mature character but still young. I dont think he is worth more than 7-8M AV though, and he almost certainly will get more than that. If your talking about paying Fuller 10M or CHJ 13M, I think its clear you pay the extra 3M AV for CHJ. Really depends on CHJ’s market. If he’s lost half a step more than 2 years of guarantees is a really bad idea. The thing is that the CB market is so low on top end talent you could see a 4 year deal with 3 guaranteed. The X-factor in FA is that with a new CBA on the horizon some teams will gamble that more $ will enter the pot - so spending now might create value later. My hunch is we will see a lot of top end deals and extensions this offseason to try and get ahead of the next CBA. If we see normally thrifty teams pay up - then the new CBA theory has wheels. Should make for a really interesting first 2 weeks of FA. Edited January 30, 2020 by Broncofan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
germ-x Posted January 30, 2020 Share Posted January 30, 2020 I’d give Harris $13-14M a year over 2 years, wouldn’t have an issue with it. But also get paying Bradberry the same over 4-5 years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BroncoBruin Posted January 31, 2020 Share Posted January 31, 2020 If Bradberry or 31 y/o CHJ goes for 13-14 mil, Byron Jones might be the best value on the market. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
germ-x Posted January 31, 2020 Share Posted January 31, 2020 (edited) 3 hours ago, BroncoBruin said: If Bradberry or 31 y/o CHJ goes for 13-14 mil, Byron Jones might be the best value on the market. For players that can shadow an opposing teams #1.....$12-14M+ is going to be the going rate. Harris might be slightly cheaper because of age, but I highly doubt he goes for anything under $10M. $10M a year makes a player roughly the 20th highest paid player at the position. Edited January 31, 2020 by germ-x Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BroncoBruin Posted January 31, 2020 Share Posted January 31, 2020 1 hour ago, germ-x said: For players that can shadow an opposing teams #1.....$12-14M+ is going to be the going rate. Harris might be slightly cheaper because of age, but I highly doubt he goes for anything under $10M. $10M a year makes a player roughly the 20th highest paid player at the position. Right, so the best value you can get is 15-16 for an elite player instead. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
germ-x Posted January 31, 2020 Share Posted January 31, 2020 3 hours ago, BroncoBruin said: Right, so the best value you can get is 15-16 for an elite player instead. If you think he’s elite then yes. IMO, Jones is going to set the record for highest paid DB in history. If/when it does happen it’s going to be a massive gamble. He’s still relatively new to CB so he could still be ascending, but the highest paid DB in history will have 1 2nd team all pro, 1 pro bowl, and 2 career INTs in 5 seasons. IMO, Harris is the best CB on the market, I don’t think it’s so much about the money with him as it is the length of the contract. I think he’s worth $13-14M a year over 2 years. Even at his age I don’t think it’s all that big of a gamble as he can be utilized in the nickel far more than he was this year, where I think even continuing to decline he probably produces as one of the best nickel CBs in football over a 2 year period. Problem for Denver is they signed Callahan to be their nickel CB and he doesn’t have really any experience on the outside. Further complicating this is I remember reading Harris having some displeasure about how he was used this season (though I can’t seem to find it now) and it was presumed to be because he didn’t get much work in the nickel where he’s been as good as anybody throughout his career. Anyway, I don’t think Harris is back so it’s all kind of moot. I don’t think he was happy with Denver giving Kareem Jackson the contract they did. I don’t think he’s happy with the losing. I don’t think he’s happy with his down year and how he was used. IMO, Harris goes to a contender where he’ll go back to his role of bumping down into the nickel and finish out the next 2-3 years competing for/in the playoffs and being a very good CB. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BroncosFan2010 Posted January 31, 2020 Share Posted January 31, 2020 I also think, when removing my emotional attachment and bias, that Harris is gone. I think he ends up on a team that is a legit contender. At least I hope he does. If that happens, my ideal contingency plan would be signing Kendall Fuller to a 5 year / 45M deal, drafting Bryce Hall and hoping that Callahan is healthy. This isnt elite, but it is a rotation that would get the job done, is rife with scheme fits and has a nice mix of young vets and untested youth: CB1 - Kendall Fuller (25) / Isaac Yiadom (23) CB2 - Bryce Hall (22?) / De'Vante Bausby (27) NB - Bryce Callahan (28) / Duke Dawson (24) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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