ET80 Posted November 15, 2019 Share Posted November 15, 2019 1 hour ago, AntonChigurh said: I mean do you have a link? Here: https://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/2019/passing.htm 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ET80 Posted November 15, 2019 Share Posted November 15, 2019 6 hours ago, ClutchDJ said: I’m not trying to be a smartass here, but have you truly watched Kyler & the Cards to come to this assessment? His offense does not look like it did at Tech or how it did the first few weeks of the season. Perhaps it's evolved, but everything I saw the first few weeks looked nearly exact to the stuff we saw from Tech, Washington State, etc. It's been about a few weeks since I got a good look at Arizona. Last game I saw was when Edmunds had that monster game... 6 hours ago, ClutchDJ said: Unlike Chip, Kliff has actually adapted. He has added a solid amount of pro-style wrinkles into his playbook. I'll take your word for it, but we'll have to see how defenses further adapt to this. That's the nature of the league - even if you DO adapt, someone will adapt to that. As I've been saying, we'll see how this season continues, but let's put the anointing oil away. Even you have to admit, I'm arguing against a pretty fanatical view on Kyler, one that you can admittedly see as a bit too over the top - he's good, but when I'm hearing terms such as "all time" and "already elite" and "best in the league" being tossed around, I have to intervene... 6 hours ago, ClutchDJ said: I’m not sure why a majority of this forum is so scared to eat their crow when it comes to this guy. He has taken a historically bad offense, led by this forum’s favorite player who said the Cards would’ve made a mistake of trading, Josh Rosen, & elevated to a decently/respectable offense without having a true WR1 & a above-average OLine. I'll admit every single day that I was wrong on it. No issues, the transition from Rosen to Kyler was a brilliant one looking back at it, and I was incorrect in thinking that. Thing is... this thread isn't arguing that, now is it? This thread is saying the Kyler Murray is having the greatest season ever for a rookie QB. (All time great, I believe was the actual phrase). Greater than Baker Mayfield and his 27 TD passes in 11 games. Greater than Deshaun Watson and 18 TDs in six games. Greater than Ben Roethlensberger and his 14 consecutive wins. Greater than Russell Wilson or Peyton Manning with 26 TDs. As actual performance is dictating, Murray is not even the best rookie QB this season, let alone all time... And he's got a lot of ground to make up to get in this conversation, too. I ate my crow... fine. Now, you tell me whether or not the premise of this thread is valid or not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClutchDJ Posted November 15, 2019 Share Posted November 15, 2019 5 hours ago, ET80 said: Even you have to admit, I'm arguing against a pretty fanatical view on Kyler, one that you can admittedly see as a bit too over the top - he's good, but when I'm hearing terms such as "all time" and "already elite" and "best in the league" being tossed around, I have to intervene... I think it’s just pure hyperbole on that guy’s part. I think everyone with sense knows Kyler isn’t of those things. At least, not yet. 5 hours ago, ET80 said: Thing is... this thread isn't arguing that, now is it? This thread is saying the Kyler Murray is having the greatest season ever for a rookie QB. (All time great, I believe was the actual phrase). Greater than Baker Mayfield and his 27 TD passes in 11 games. Greater than Deshaun Watson and 18 TDs in six games. Greater than Ben Roethlensberger and his 14 consecutive wins. Greater than Russell Wilson or Peyton Manning with 26 TDs. I thought the premise of this thread was Kyler is the most talented QB since Luck? Not is he having the best the best rookie season of all time. Do I think he’s the most talented rookie since Luck myself? Yes. Do I think he’s having the best rookie season ever? Unless he turns it really on in the 2nd half of the season, of course not. 5 hours ago, ET80 said: As actual performance is dictating, Murray is not even the best rookie QB this season, let alone all time... And he's got a lot of ground to make up to get in this conversation, too. I’m extremely curious as to who is? I know it’s not the guy who has turned the ball over 11 total times in Minshew, who I most likely bet you’re going to say. It also can’t be the guy who has even turned the ball even more than him in Daniel Jones either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ET80 Posted November 15, 2019 Share Posted November 15, 2019 47 minutes ago, ClutchDJ said: I think it’s just pure hyperbole on that guy’s part. I think everyone with sense knows Kyler isn’t of those things. At least, not yet. No, it's not. Really, look at his responses. He's either trolling us, or he's really riding that wave. 48 minutes ago, ClutchDJ said: I thought the premise of this thread was Kyler is the most talented QB since Luck? Not is he having the best the best rookie season of all time. There's a difference between the th thread title and the actual discussion. C'mon man, don't be obtuse for the sake of your guy - unless you're not reading the thread, you'll clearly see we've evolved past any sort of discussion about Luck v Murray. 50 minutes ago, ClutchDJ said: he having the best the best rookie season of all time. Do I think he’s the most talented rookie since Luck myself? Yes. That's a VERY bold take, but I can respect it. I can't agree with it... but I'll respect it. 50 minutes ago, ClutchDJ said: Do I think he’s having the best rookie season ever? Unless he turns it really on in the 2nd half of the season, of course not. Cool, at least we're on the same page. He could go supernova, win like seven in a row and put up some massive numbers in the process, sure. But as you said - he'd have to turn it on, not just perform at his current pace. 52 minutes ago, ClutchDJ said: I’m extremely curious as to who is? I know it’s not the guy who has turned the ball over 11 total times in Minshew, who I most likely bet you’re going to say. It also can’t be the guy who has even turned the ball even more than him in Daniel Jones either. I'll preface this by saying I'm not a fan of Gardner Minshew; I've gone as far as to compare him to Case Keenum in terms of career arc and overall skillset... So please, don't take this as me trying to endorse Gardner Minshew. He's a fine backup, someone is going to give him a starting gig one day - and that's going to be a mistake. All of this being said, the on field production has been favoring Minshew to this point. Minshew has the turnovers, yes - but he's also throwing more TDs while not throwing as many INTs (in one less game). You bring up 11 turnovers for Minshew's, sure - but remember that seven of those 11 turnovers are against one team (the Texans) so that value is pretty skewed too. Houston makes him look bad, everyone has that one team. Ultimately, if you were to ask the question to a random sampling of football fans - you'd see there is a discussion to be had between the two. Neither is outpacing the other, but they're close to one another, and neither is pulling even with the Mayfield/Manning/Wilson-type rookie seasons. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billy86 Posted November 16, 2019 Share Posted November 16, 2019 Small issue with the article is that Luck wasn't even the most talented QB in his own draft. I liked Luck, he was a tonne of fun to watcha really good QB, and honestly seemed one of the most approachable, down-to-earth superstar caliber players in my 17 years watching the sport. But as someone who never gets the chance to watch NCAA much, the over-hyping of him was so, so nauseating. We spent about three years point blank pretending that he wasn't throwing the interceptions he was, and pretending he was significantly more accurate than he was too. He was excellent, but he also had flaws and it took a long time for the media etc to just 'fess up to it. If Luck was an undrafted guy with no hype around his entry to the league, the quality of his performances would be viewed more similarly to Romo (and that's not meant as shade - Romo for me was always, at worst, a consistently top 8 QB who often got incredibly unfair treatment from his own fan base). Wilson on the other hand has shown to comfortably be the better of the two, and while Mahomes or even Lamar might dis-spell this by the end of their careers, right here and right now Russell Wilson is the best QB drafted across this entire decade. Of course, in the Simpsons-like comedy show that QB combine metrics can often be, he went two rounds later because he was a few inches too short to be Radioactive Man a franchise QB, which ironically, is exactly why some were saying Murray should not have been taken in the first, number one overall, etc. Funnier again the exact same people who were doubting Wilson were also quick to forget their own mistakes and claim "no he is so much smaller than Wilson" didn't seem to notice that Murray was 1" shorter and 3lbs heavier than Wilson was when drafted. Anyway, I've rambled. TLDR - Luck was awesome, but being the most hyped (and possibly most overhyped) QB drafted in the last 7 years does not make you the best QB drafted in the last 7 years. I had thought the NFL-covering media had noticed that by now with regards to Luck, but... no. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soko Posted November 16, 2019 Share Posted November 16, 2019 On 11/14/2019 at 11:29 PM, AntonChigurh said: Anyone who stats as a crutch for an argument doesnt have much of an argument On 11/12/2019 at 10:29 PM, AntonChigurh said: The cardinals are 6th in yards after catch while having no wrs who can break open against decent corner backs. http://hosted.stats.com/fb/tmleaders.asp?range=NFL&type=Receiving&rank=231 On 11/13/2019 at 10:03 PM, AntonChigurh said: Murray has a lower interception rate than Watson. On 11/13/2019 at 10:03 PM, AntonChigurh said: Murray has kept his int rate, i believe lowest rate in the league This thread in a nutshell 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lavar703 Posted November 23, 2019 Share Posted November 23, 2019 (edited) This thread is odd considering Wilson and RG3 were both better than Luck their rookie years. Edited November 23, 2019 by lavar703 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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